Dr Rick

The probability of an event having occured is not affected by what we believe.

Rick

Godless Dave

It suggests to me that God was never there in the first place. It wasn't until he was dying on the cross that Jesus realized there was no God to help him.

malookiemaloo

True probabilityhas nothing to do with truth or belief. It is what it says. Probability. JJLowder touches on it in his excellent thesis on the historicity of the resurrection.

But IF God exists then talking donkeys et al would not be a problem. In other words, the question is 'does God exist?' not 'can a donkey talk?'.

Well that's all from me for today. It's time to go home in the UK.


m

Mageth

It suggests to me that God was never there in the first place. It wasn't until he was dying on the cross that Jesus realized there was no God to help him.

True, but I was approaching it from the Xian Man-God perspective. God was not a participant in death. He pulled out at the last moment.

Mageth

True probability has nothing to do with truth or belief.

I agree with the "belief" part but not the "truth" part. And apparently you don't agree with it either, becuase you say:

But IF God exists then talking donkeys et al would not be a problem.

This could be rephrased "But if it is true that God exists..."

fatherphil

balaam never told these guys what he already knew, that isreal was blessed by God. if he had, perhaps they would have not bothered him with the commission. instead balaam kept saying "i'll only speak the words God tells me". well would it have not been more helpful for him to tell them he could not curse these people in the first place? it really is not reading between the lines at all. it is as simple as reading what is said and by whom. look at this narative with the expectaion that it makes sence as opposed to it being confused and i think you'll see some pretty obvious ramifications. really good story telling for any age.

quartodeciman

fatherphil,

{reading...}

Things Balaam said:

I will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me:

the LORD refuseth to give me leave to go with you

If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more

Balaam's job with these men is complete. The answer is NO. But then comes the new order in verse 20. Balaam saddles up and leaves with the princes of Moab. Balaam's task is now to deliver "the word which I shall say unto thee" to King Balak directly.

The scene with the ass is better constructed to represent God's penchant for heavy-handed point-reinforcement with magic, not as bad as in the Abraham and Isaac story in Genesis, but still typical.

If I read this story with the same mind-set as you, then of course I expect to construct it your way. That is trivial! I'm interested in what is actually stated, not in how it can be gilded.

quart

fatherphil

7 The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.
8 "Spend the night here," Balaam said to them, "and I will bring you back the answer the LORD gives me." So the Moabite princes stayed with him.
9 God came to Balaam and asked, "Who are these men with you?"
10 Balaam said to God, "Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message: 11 'A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.' "
12 But God said to Balaam, "Do not go with them. You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."
13 The next morning Balaam got up and said to Balak's princes, "Go back to your own country, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you."

verses 12 & 13 clearly show that balaam did not tell them what the Lord had said to him

quartodeciman

fatherphil said: verses 12 & 13 clearly show that balaam did not tell them what the Lord had said to him

And why should he? God told him NOT to go and NOT to put a curse on those people; God did NOT say "Tell these men that the people are blessed."

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{In case I don't get a chance to comment on this:}

Numbers 22:34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.

A very telling verse. Sin is a result of ignorance.

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By the time of the new testament general epistles and apocalypse, poor Balaam gets broadly calumniated:

2nd Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

quart

NonHomogenized

Ixnay on the efferringray otay ullingpay outay earlyay inay readsthay aboutay assesay!