Ronin

Hell is part and parcel of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for not apologizing for your allegiance with such a tyrannical concept...you make my point well.

What does your common sense tell you of those scriptures?

So, then you can violate the stated OT rules?

"Saves us" from who?

Emulate one who curses fig trees and orders the murders of those who simply choose not to fall under his tyrannical reign and that of his split personality Yahweh?

It seems to me that any religion that can get numerous Christians to ignore a simple and direct command from Jesus or Yahweh in the name of their own "context" is going to have a hard time with teaching better morality to everybody else.

Maybe this can explain the widespread explosion of religion in America and the widespread rise in hatefulness, racism, right winged bigotry, and utter lack of honesty.

The tenets found within the lore of the Christian religion regulates murders, wars, rapes, slavery and rape...this mindset promotes bad behavior in humans who perceive that their way is the Truth(tm).

You have not reconciled this perception that Jesus is all good.

I have shown you his tyrannical behavior as stated in the abrahamic book.

Other than this book, where are you drawing the inference that Jesus is good?

Perfect love does not require coercion or the threat of torture...even I know better than that.

Regarding the miraculuous, you said ~ ...and, strangely, NOTHING is mentioned about the miracles that occur daily in the missionary fields, or the good works that churches do, and so on and so forth.

Emphasis mine.

Please, for the record, tell me again the only convenient trait that will save humans, according to the Christian fable.

The Luke quote was Jesus' words...read your bible daily, Muffinstuffer.

Any OT quotes were from his never-changing Father.

Makes sense to me...because anyone who behaves as the God/Jesus/Ghost of the Christian fable is not an example of real goodness and love and would not be on the streets in the city I protect and serve.

Muffinstuffer

No problem.

Common sense doesn't tell me much when I don't know and can't remember the context in which they were used. As it is, I COULD be wrong, but upon closer inspection of Luke 19, it appears that the man who is the focus of the parable that Jesus is telling, is the actual one who says the words you quoted.

Sure I 'can.' I do it every day, no matter how hard I try NOT to. Not that it is right to. My entire point with this was not to say that we should NOT follow what is contained in the OT. My point was to say that Jesus came to fulfill all of them, and that as Christians it is better to follow HIM because He fulfilled them all.

Sure. Why not? I can see this debate is turning into another "Why I'm Wrong and Irrational for Being a Christian" thread. I'd rather not participate if that is the case. I didn't come here to tell everyone here how WRONG they are for believing what they believe, nor did I come here to make apologies for my beliefs or what they are or stand for.

And you know what? I completely agree, just as I agree that the Inquisition and the Crusades didn't do wonders to further the cause of Christianity.

Nor will I try to. I never came here to try to defend Jesus 100% because I guarantee you I'm not the greatest Biblical scholar, and all it takes is for me to fail once, and *boom* there goes my credibility, if I have any here. I came here to converse and discuss in general, not to try to prove exactly why Christianity and Jesus are so much better than any other religious thing going.

Past the fact that Jesus followed the laws and rules set forth by His father, I'm not. And once again, I'm not here to try to defend every single one of them. As I said above, I guarantee you I'm not the greatest Biblical scholar, and I guarantee you I'll screw it up.

Nothing is mentioned - where? And does it REALLY matter? Even if it WAS mentioned it would be discounted. Not a month ago, my wife's aunt stuck herself with a needle filled with, and was found positive for, Hepatitis C. On top of that, she was pregnant. She got the runaround from the doctors, and so on and so forth, because none of them would touch her with a 10 foot pole because of the situation.

Well, one day my wife was watching CBN and Pat Robertson (whom I'm sure everyone here has the UTMOST respect for ), and when they prayed, she prayed for her aunt. Pat then said "I don't know who, but someone out there has had their blood infected. (I forget the exact words.) I want you to know that Jesus can and has healed you." I said "Well, that's cool, but, well, let's see what happens." I'm not one of those to just believe that miracles happen all the time.

Well, I'll be danged if we didn't call her the next day, and she found out that somehow the Hepatitis was GONE from the bloodstream. A miracle? Maybe, maybe not. You can figure out what I believe. But there are still and will still be people who could hear of miracles all day long and would not believe in them in the least.

You know what it is. Why do I need to repeat it?

As I've said above...and I COULD be wrong (and am frequently), I believe the words are of Jesus' but actually spoken BY the characer in the parable Jesus tells.

How so?

Rational BAC

Hang in there Muffin.

I think you are doing very well. ----------and against tough old Ronin too. (or maybe tough young Ronin---I have gotten hung on that kind of preconception before)

The Lord be with you-------

Muffinstuffer

Heh. Thanks. Although I can honestly say I don't have any intentions of, or misconceptions that I can, 'beat' Ronin...and I'm not trying to. I'm definitely not perfect, and if anyone's looking for ME for a great Christian role model, then I'm not your man, because I screw up ALL the time. I'll defend what I believe when I can, and I don't mind discussing it of course, but just as I did not come here to wave around picket signs and scream "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand", I did not come here to be told just HOW wrong I am for believing what I do, and why it's wrong, and so on. I can survive if I am, but my main reason in coming here was to converse and discuss in general, and I figured that an atheist/agnostic website was a great way to get an 'all around view' of a lot of different subjects.

Ronin

I know.

And should you be right or wrong...this differs from Jesus' Gospel of 'Love' aka Hell and murder, how?

If Christ, in fact, said "I came not to bring peace but a sword," it is
the only prophecy in the New Testament that has been literally fulfilled.

Which brings us back to the common notion of perfect love and Christ's lack of it.

Don't see it that way, Muffinstuffer, see it as an expression of thoughtful debate over the meaning of love, human compassion and understanding.

Nothing personal...please don't pack a parachute now.

Then will you agree that Christ does not represent an all-loving character to emulate?

Can you perceive of a more personal way to care for humanity?

I'm not asking you be either be a biblical scholar or rely on prepackaged apologetics...I only hope that you can use your humanity to truly see what you are representing and how it conflicts with reality in plain view and commonly understood notions of love.

Using your human intellect, though, what is it that you don't feel comfortable addressing about Christianity that I have shown you?

What doctors behaved in this manner?

You have a fairly reliable lawsuit on your hands, Muffinstuffer.

The needle tested positive for Hep-C...are you stating that your Aunt tested positive as well?

This is a perfect example of how dangerous the Christian addle-brained mindsnare is to the human condition.

Surely, you are not suggesting that praying through a television set for an intervention is preferable to real medical treatment?!

Tread cautiously here, Muffinstuffer, the precipice on which you've taken your religion here on a public board borders on the psychotic...no offense.

So you can see it for the vain and hateful dogma for what it is.

You could be wrong...but it does mesh with the overall tenet of the non-believer being tortuously flayed for eternity in the name of Christ ~ so the point is moot.

A killer tyrant that destroys so much and does so little to protect, despite his alleged superpowers, deserves a buttload of jail time.

Ronin

Fear not, Rational BAC...you both are working with a defective product, but I'm sure you're both nice fellows otherwise.

One day you'll have to visit my humble town...I'll take you among the whores and thieves that I care for so dearly.

Btw~ does BAC stand for Blood Alcohol Content?

Rational BAC

That was a bad one Ronin----but I forgive you.

Nope-------Stands for Born Again Christian

Not that I don't like my beer.

Ronin

Hey, no worries...I just had that on my mind as I work many Felony DUI's and that was what crept devilishly into my mind.

Born Again Christian...do you have two bellybuttons?

Don't drive drunk...prayer notwithstanding, alright?

Muffinstuffer

I'm in the middle of rebooting a buncha servers so I can't respond to all of this in depth but I thought I would hit on one or two points, and I'll respond later this afternoon/evening.

Oh I'm not 'bailing.' But I was being honest...I didn't come here to try to defend my faith/religion to the death, because there are plenty of things about my faith/religion I do not know for sure, and more than a few even I can't explain. The simple fact is that I can NOT explain everything about what I believe. If this means I'm irrational and silly for believing in what I do, then so be it. I'm quite sure I can always talk myself into a corner.

Well, considering that Christ's actions were almost always of healing and helping the sick/poor/downtrodden, not really...you can't get much more personal than that.

It has nothing to do with not feeling 'comfortable.' It has to do with the fact that there are often things about my faith I do not know off the top of my head, and some of them I can't explain even if I do know what the Bible says. I CAN'T always reconcile what humanity thinks with what the Bible says. Considering that, as a Christian, I should probably be striving to find the Biblical/spiritual answers, and not the answers from the humanist point of view, I will have to go study some more...and will have to do that for the rest of my life.

I don't know the names of the doctors, but the fact is that the usual antibiotics and the like that would normally be used to treat someone with this problem could NOT be used due to the fact that she has a baby on the way, and it would pose too much of a threat. Their recommendations: "Abort the baby, then get treatment." And yes, from what I understand, she was found positive for Hep-C. I COULD be wrong...this is coming from my wife, and I posed the exact same question to her, and she said 'yes.' (Both of them are nurses, and I got told this the other day, after the prayer but before the call. Nice that she told me after the fact. *L*)

Come on, Ronin. Did I say ANYWHERE within my post that I think praying through a television set for an intervention is preferable to real medical treatment? I said that my wife prayed when they had the prayer time on CBN, and that she said something concerning blood infections and that it was healed by Jesus, and that the next day my wife's aunt found out she was negative. Somewhere else on this very same board, it was I who said, in response to a post about someone who just 'prayed' for themselves to be healed, "I think that some people don't realize that maybe God put doctors on this earth to HEAL PEOPLE." *LOL* I don't mean to be rude, but I do hope you do not think that just because I'm one of those farkin' bastidge fundies does not mean that EVERYTHING I say or do is irrational or psychotic.

Just most of it. Hee hee.

Rational BAC

Not to worry Ronin--

I did not get to the age of 60 by doing that.

(You are allowing the devil in your mind? Shouldn't really do that you know---it is best to be a little consistent with your atheism.)