Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 01-23-2003, 08:24 AM

Sorry, posted a long rant and then noted former pastor.

Vicar Philip · 01-23-2003, 09:09 AM

Yes, as I've said before, I have a lot of respect for the pastor, and I wish I had spoken to him sooner. Hell, I may have changed my views 5-6 years ago if I'd talked to him about it!

Quote:

Originally posted by stryder2112
They personally have some sort of quasi-pantheist view of god but also understand that most of their parishners cannot accept on an emotional level that the concept of a personal god (e.g. "theism") is dead. So they muddle on in the double-speak of theism while translating it in their own minds into a sort of agnostic pantheism.

Wow, that is almost word for word what he said to me last night. Are you sure you weren't hiding behind the door?

He told me that and I commented that it must be terribly frustrating to hold the views he does and then have to put on a different face to please the congregation. He's got to eat too!

Helen mentioned John Shelby Spong, and that's exactly the book the pastor recommended to me. He read Spong's twelve issues (towards the bottom of the page) which really struck a chord with me.

I still consider myself an atheist, but as Brighid said, I realize personal beliefs need to be refined and molded to really fit a person.

Thanks for the kudos for the moderatorship. I shouldn't blow it too bad since it's humor, but it's a great honor for me to be so welcomed in a time in my life when I really need it. So thanks everyone!

stryder2112 · 01-23-2003, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
Wow, that is almost word for word what he said to me last night. Are you sure you weren't hiding behind the door? He told me that and I commented that it must be terribly frustrating to hold the views he does and then have to put on a different face to please the congregation. He's got to eat too!

No, I wasn't hiding behind the door!

Like I wrote, there are quite a few ministers much like the pastor you spoke to in the mainline Christian denominations in the US.

Stryder

p.s. Congrats on the moderatorship!

admice · 01-23-2003, 09:37 AM

It sounds like you are more a Naturalist. A pan theist usually refers to multiple gods. They have some OK articles in the library here, but I also recommend checking out this site of Steven Schafersman.

http://www.freeinquiry.com/

Keep doing research, you will find there are more questioners than you know. I recently read a survey done indicating as a many as 30% of clergy (all kinds, in the US) are agnostic or atheist. Will try to find that reference.

I can provide you with many other links, if you'ld like. (Once I get into something, I guess I'm compulsive (passionate?) about it.)

So glad to hear all the good news!

Take care

Proxima Centauri · 01-23-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip

My wife took the entire weekend off from Wal-Mart for some much needed mind-clearing time. Yesterday was a real breakthrough for us.
I can't tell you how relieved our two boys were when we told them Mommy and Daddy were NOT getting a divorce. They had been very, very quiet recently and bickering much more than usual. I really do think the worst has passed.

I'm pleased about the general progress you and your wife have made. I'm also pleased that your wife had a break from Wal-Mart. The people here agree that the stress and tension your family suffers over debt is part of the reason why the religious difficulty was so difficult to resolve. I've sorted out some information about irresponsible trading behaviour by Wal-Mart. That should help you and your wife to resist temptation to buy too much there. That should help all responsible Christians and Humanists who care abou their fellow human beings to resist temptation to shop at Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart have been accused of running sweatshops and of exploiting third world workers.
Here's the information on Walmarts Sweatshops..

Here's a discussion about Walmarts.
Some of the people seem quite pleased. Many are really angry.

Proxima Centauri · 01-23-2003, 10:56 AM

It has been suggested to me that I may have made a mistake. Perhaps your wife works at Wal-mart rather than spending money there. If so perhaps you could tell us if your wife thinks Wal-mart are a good or bad employer.
Please tell us how well you are resisting temptation to overspend money. Please tell us how well you are clearing your debts.

Goliath · 01-23-2003, 11:27 AM

Vicar Philip,

I'm glad to hear that things are going better between you and your wife. I'm also very glad to hear that the visit to the pastor went well. I apologize for advising you against seeing him.

I also admire you for having the love that you must have--that you'd have to have in order to pull through this. Were I in your shoes, I would've divorced her before even coming to the II.

I wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,

Goliath

admice · 01-23-2003, 11:38 AM

hey Vicar, you might want to check out this document. Some of it will probably apply and be helpful, some not, but I found it helpful (course, I'm a Humanist, so prejudiced)

http://www.americanhumanist.org/publ...chapter-6.html

Take care

BadBadBad · 01-23-2003, 01:27 PM

Darren,

Every few days I look at this thread and I find something astonishing. I can't believe what this Pastor guy said. That's just too funny. It seems to me that his belief sets are even worse than the fundies in that he seems to be aware of the problems with christianity, but still clings to it. Even more hypocritical than the fundies for standing up in front of christians who don't get it and preaching the bible nonsense and singing the silly songs. Why not admit it. There's no God! I'd like to be there for that sermon!

What did he say about your wife? How is this next meeting going to play out? I mean what's he going to say with respect to how this religious issue should be resolved between you and your wife? What will be the basis for what he has to say? Seems like he's thrown so much of the Bible out, what's left, and what is it's legitimacy?

Quote:

He told me that he couldn't tell my wife all the things he told me. She's not ready, ....................

I damn sure would want him to share that with my wife, ready or not. If he doesn't share, 1st person, I sure would. Why go for just atheist/christian coexistence? Perhaps we'll just see who gets converted in this little Pastor counselling session! I can just see it now "Look honey, even your preacher doesn't believe this shit!" Haaa! What a day it would be if I could get that kind of admission out of my wife's Baptist preacher. That would be one cold day in Hell!

If my wife knew that her preacher felt that way, it would sure take the wind out of her sail. I would be sure to use it to invalidate and deflate her pious position in our marriage. There are a number of ways to play it, but this is great.

BC

jj · 01-23-2003, 03:07 PM

If he wasn't dead, I'd have to say that the minister you talked to was my very long since former Presbyterian minister.

We had a talk, when I was becoming a Sr. in High School, that went a lot like that. It started because (naive midwesterner that I was) I looked surprised when he used "gods name in vain". This was quite a relief to me (I had lots of questions, and we had a couple of seriously absolutist ministers after him, he'd since left to a new "calling" and then retired) to find out I wasn't the only one who added 2+2 in the "bible" and got 3.

But it turns out that he had gotten to where I was headed quite a few years ago, and continued to be a minister because he could help people even if he was no longer an avid theist.

He wasn't an atheist by the usual definition, but he surely was agnostic to say the least. If you've hit on someone similar you may be in better hands than one might otherwise think. On the other hand, I have had at least one ardent, controlling theist try that tack on me as a trap. SHE was majorly disappointed, let me tell you.

As always, be careful, keep your ears open, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING and remember that you can't help anyone else unless you're surviving!

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01-23-2003, 08:24 AM	#511
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Sorry, posted a long rant and then noted former pastor.

01-23-2003, 09:37 AM	#514
admice Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S Cal Posts: 327	It sounds like you are more a Naturalist. A pan theist usually refers to multiple gods. They have some OK articles in the library here, but I also recommend checking out this site of Steven Schafersman. http://www.freeinquiry.com/ Keep doing research, you will find there are more questioners than you know. I recently read a survey done indicating as a many as 30% of clergy (all kinds, in the US) are agnostic or atheist. Will try to find that reference. I can provide you with many other links, if you'ld like. (Once I get into something, I guess I'm compulsive (passionate?) about it.) So glad to hear all the good news! Take care

01-23-2003, 10:56 AM	#516
Proxima Centauri Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: England, the EU. Posts: 2,403	It has been suggested to me that I may have made a mistake. Perhaps your wife works at Wal-mart rather than spending money there. If so perhaps you could tell us if your wife thinks Wal-mart are a good or bad employer. Please tell us how well you are resisting temptation to overspend money. Please tell us how well you are clearing your debts.

01-23-2003, 11:27 AM	#517
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Vicar Philip, I'm glad to hear that things are going better between you and your wife. I'm also very glad to hear that the visit to the pastor went well. I apologize for advising you against seeing him. I also admire you for having the love that you must have--that you'd have to have in order to pull through this. Were I in your shoes, I would've divorced her before even coming to the II. I wish you the best of luck. Sincerely, Goliath

01-23-2003, 11:38 AM	#518
admice Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S Cal Posts: 327	hey Vicar, you might want to check out this document. Some of it will probably apply and be helpful, some not, but I found it helpful (course, I'm a Humanist, so prejudiced) http://www.americanhumanist.org/publ...chapter-6.html Take care

01-23-2003, 03:07 PM	#520
jj Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redmond, Wa Posts: 937	If he wasn't dead, I'd have to say that the minister you talked to was my very long since former Presbyterian minister. We had a talk, when I was becoming a Sr. in High School, that went a lot like that. It started because (naive midwesterner that I was) I looked surprised when he used "gods name in vain". This was quite a relief to me (I had lots of questions, and we had a couple of seriously absolutist ministers after him, he'd since left to a new "calling" and then retired) to find out I wasn't the only one who added 2+2 in the "bible" and got 3. But it turns out that he had gotten to where I was headed quite a few years ago, and continued to be a minister because he could help people even if he was no longer an avid theist. He wasn't an atheist by the usual definition, but he surely was agnostic to say the least. If you've hit on someone similar you may be in better hands than one might otherwise think. On the other hand, I have had at least one ardent, controlling theist try that tack on me as a trap. SHE was majorly disappointed, let me tell you. As always, be careful, keep your ears open, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING and remember that you can't help anyone else unless you're surviving!

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