wildernesse

Frostymama and Uzzah:

I agree with you both that the Confederate battle flag is used today by racists and is a symbol of oppression and hatred. And at one time it stood for those people who fought and died for the Confederacy (whatever their reasons).

I don't think that anyone can deny that the Confederate battle flag is still an emotional issue in the South. Those emotions need to be dealt with for the South to move forward freely--not papered over. AND the move for change needs to come from within our communities and not from outside, which only causes people to dig in their heels and circle the wagons instead of having an open dialogue.

I think that this could happen in the South, but someone has to have some vision and some guts and get out there and tell the truth. Saying that the South is the stronghold of racist idiots and is an embarrassment to the country is not telling the whole truth. Those people need to look more closely at their own communities and at the nation as a whole before becoming accusatory.

--tibac

Uzzah

I agree that if change happens, it'll happen from the inside down here. We're too stubborn and *still* too prejudice against anyone from the North for them to have any good effect on us.

I think that all human beings are naturally prejudice to some degree and fight that instinct. The problem is I don't believe many people in the south fight that instinct as well as most people in the north. Also social norms have to be considered. I can't speak for the north, but when you get in a redneck circle of friends...racism isn't looked down upon but is actually encouraged through various jokes..etc.

Interracial relationships still get outright looks of hatred down here as well.

The biggest cause of racism down here is ignorance....the biggest problem with the ignorance is the fact that people are quite happy to be that way and have no urge to learn. I'm sure Rufus will agree with me on that last point.

Uzzah

Puck

I'll have to agree with that, Uzzah. Personally, I think untill we study the history and then sit down and talk, there won't be any changes. And the arseholes keep breeding and raising their children to be the same hateful way. Sigh.

GH

It's true in the South because it's true everywhere.

Puck

On a somewhat lighter note.

I heard on the news this afternoon that Sonny Purdue, who got the vote of the 'Let Us Vote' folks, is now trying to backpedal out of that!

Woo-hoo. That's how to go about pissing off Georgia Republicans. This could get funny.

wildernesse

It's because we CAN'T vote on the flag. It's against the GA Constitution because the legislature has made some laws about it, putting the flag in their province--and in the GA Constitution, they're not allowed to fob off the responsibilities they have taken upon themselves onto the voters.

In a governor's debate pre-election, Sonny's answer to this fact was along the lines of "I don't care that the GA Constitution says we can't. I think we can!"

--tibac

wildernesse

Maybe in the north and other parts of the country they aren't confronted with people who are obviously different from them every day. Not to say that southerners are excused from the responsibility to be just, but that other people may not have the opportunities to even choose not to be racist on a day to day basis. If the populations of blacks were the same in rural areas outside the South as they are in the South, then would we see a differet response? I'm not so sure that we would.

But there are interracial marriages and relationships and plenty of biracial children running about. This statement only matters if you can prove that in other parts of the country interracial relationships are welcomed and loved.

--tibac

crownboy

RufusAtticus, I'm having a little trouble seeing your point of view here. As a black person, I simply cannot see how you totally fail to realize what a negative symbol the Confederate flag is to us (yes I'm from NYC, but I do have family that lives in Georgia who share my views. So pretend that they're speaking to you ).

An apt description would be to compare you to a theist who tries to defend the bible. The atheist points out all the silly things in there, the theist points out some good that Christanity has done. If the atheist persist in showing the theist how wrong he is, and perhaps pointing out how many people have been killed by religion, the theist points out that some "atheist regime" like Russia killed many people as well. Pointing out that the north was racist and that it capitualted to the southern demand to allow slavery doesn't remove the fact that a large point of the confederacy was about slavery.

The "states rights" issue was and continues to be one of the lamest political claims, used especially by conservatives. "States rights" doesn't give the state to be tyrinical, so the south having the "right" to own other people is hardly an admirable thing. I suppose if a conservative state today were to ban abortion on the "states rights" mantra, it would be OK? Of course, states have a right to demand checks on federal power (I happen to believe the federal gov't actually is too powerful in many ways), but not so that they could have the "right" to enforce immoral, cohersive rules themselves.

So while you as a (presumably) white person may see many "positive" things in the confederate flag (I don't think you are a racist, BTW, just perhaps a tad insensitive to the folks who definitely see nothing good about a flag that represented a system that was very negative for them), black people and other non-white and white people will see something very different. I think it was very necessary to do something about the confederate flag being a prominent feature on a public symbol that represents many minority people. I would have been in support of totally removing it, but beeing a moderate type, I think the compromise is at least OK.

I'm also not the type of person who expects white people to be "ashamed" of their heritage because of the past. I have no problem with anyone doing these celebrations, hell, you can even have private celebrations of the greatness of slavery under the confederacy for all I care, but on a public symbol like the flag that represents a broad cross section of people, having a prominent feature that, for good reason, offends many people, is unacceptable to me. Put a symbol of a society/group that celebrated white southern culture w/o resorting to putting slavery into it's constitution (no it doesn't matter that the US gov't had it too. That's not what's the point here ).

So while you may indeed have some points with your arguments, just don't forget that for many people this is all moot, and they don't see as much "good" in the symbol as you do.

(BTW, due to a dearth of good college football teams in the NYC area, I've always been a HUGE Florida Gators fan. Since we can't win the national title this year, it's good to know we spoiled your chances, too . But hey, we have won like 12 of the last 13 meetings, so don't expect to win a national championship anytime soon, since you'll continue loosing to us every year .)

From my experience southern people are more well mannered than the folks who live in NYC (though I wouldn't move from here for anything. ); willing to say "hello", "good morning" and the such. People love to cook and share food with others down south, I barely know the people who live next door, here . I've seen some interracial couples in the south, but you can't get much more diverse than NYC, though.

RufusAtticus

Hi Crownboy,

I never said that there aren't bad things associated with Confederate Symbols. It, like all symbols, has both good and bad things attached. Yes it has been used to represent racism and symbolize opression. But it has also been used to represent the valor of young men (not just white men) who gave their lives for their homes.

I point that out not to absolve the South of its historical responsibilities, but to point out that any Yankee who acts like he comes from a superior moral background needs to fix his own backyard before he complains about mine.

So liberals get to use "states' rights" but conservatives don't? (BTW: I'm not conservative.) Calling it "lame" isn't going to change the fact that that was the overall issue.

You can't judge histories actions by today's standards. (That's called a Whigish view.) You have to look at the culture of the time. Before the civil war, people were "New Yorkers" or "Georgians" first and "Americans" second. The federal goverment didn't cement it's power over the states until reconstruction. Before the 13th amendment, states had the power to descide wheather to allow slavery or not.

Not at all. Our government is different than it was 140 years ago. States were much more independent and autonomous then. The CSA wasn't the first attempt of states to leave the Union.

Who is insensitive here? Someone who declares that there is absolutely nothing good (or bad) attached to a symbol, or someone who acknowledges that there are both good and bad things attached to it? Seeing things in black and white (sorry for the pun), isn't going to promote dialog and resolution.

~~RvFvS~~

Puck

Thank you for joining this discussion, crownboy, because even if us white Southernes try to be fair and honest, let's face it, we can't see it from the Southern African-American perspective.

You wrote:
As a black person, I simply cannot see how you totally fail to realize what a negative symbol the Confederate flag is to us

If I may ask...is it a negative symbol because of it's current use, it's past use, or both? The Confederate Flag has been taken up as a banner for the KKK and other unsavory groups. If they had not adopted the Flag for their own nasty purposes, would it still be such a *strong* a negative symbol for you?

You wrote:
I think it was very necessary to do something about the confederate flag being a prominent feature on a public symbol that represents many minority people. I would have been in support of totally removing it, but beeing a moderate type, I think the compromise is at least OK.

I must disagree on one point, although the new flag is an *improvement*, I don't think the Confederate Battle Flag is a proper thing for a State Flag, in any fashion. I think we should have either gone back to the old flag, pre 1950's, or come up with a new one without the battle flag included. Making the Confederate Battle Flag most of the state flag, was a result of hate, and if for no other reason, it's validity as a symbol for all people of this state was negated at that time.

I guess what bothers me the most, is that I feel like the Confederate Flag has been hijacked by terrorists and I hate that it no longer represents the people who fought under it. It pisses me off that I have ancestors who I am reasonably sure would detest the very people who use that flag today. If I had the honor of owning an original Confederate flag from an ancestor, I wouldn't display it in my own home for fear that a black neighbor would see it and think poorly of me.

We can't change the whole south here at ii, but can we here at least take each others hand and walk this walk to help heal a little of the wound? Change of attitude comes first, one person at a time. I can't see things from your perspective unless you share it with me, nor can you, mine. Here is my hand.