This thread is meant, mainly, to challenge atheistic views on this board, as well as our intellectual abilities to reason about something that is not so familiar to us.

I have heard many different explanations that attempt to prove the nonexistence of such things as a non-physical, conscious entities (ie. Souls). Yet, I have never accepted any of them to be true to me.

Let it be a given, for this discussion, that consciousness is just a state of brain chemistry (electromagnetic waves are fine too). What is it, that experiences consciousness? I am looking for an atheistic response to this question, although theists are welcome to share their bit.

To the theists: please, try to refrain from giving vague statements, such as WE ARE SOULS BECAUSE GOD SAID SO... etc. in your response, thanx.

How about consciusness is "ego-awareness." I would say this because when we are asleap we are not conscious, when we are hypnotized we are not conscious, when we are in a state of shock we are in a reduced state of consciousness, when we are unconscious we are also not conscious and when we get zapped by an evangelist we are in an altered state of consciousness.

If your question is why we are ego conscious my answer would be that we are not our ego but are only aware of our ego. So it is not because we have a soul that we are ego conscious but because we are our soul that we are ego conscious.

Amos

I've always wondered why we are self aware, and what mechanism in our brain allows it, and why it proved an evolutionary advantage. I think our brains are one of the most interesting things about us, and it's one of the least understood organs.

Amos,

You are describing different states of consciousness. But with respect to your arguement, this does not answer what is conscious.

Are you saying that our brains are conscious; that we are our brains?

SkipperZ,

That is a thoughtful response which I agree with; the brain is one of the most interesting organs in our body and I believe it is most definately, the least understood.

I think I can explain away consciousness (high-level self-awareness) quite well. Here's my thread <a href="http://www.infidels.org/electronic/forum/Forum4/HTML/001016.html" target="_blank">The "mystery" of consciousness</a>.

I still don't have a very deep understanding of neuroscience yet, so my explanation isn't very detailed.

Here's a diagram of how I think the animal brain works:

(I now call short term memory "working memory" though)
There is a lot to my theory, but basically the animal brain has several reflexes. I have generalized them. The primary drive is to avoid pain (also disgust and fear), and it seeks happiness by seeking relief (relaxation and relief of tensions), surprises and unity (feeling an alignment or a connection with things - e.g. observing beauty, being at home, etc)
These drives make the animal brain act and are the basis of its goals. Higher level goals (e.g. finding a job, etc) are subconsciously associated with these primal drives. The brain also has instinctual reflexes - e.g. the sucking reflex, pulling away from pain, etc.
Anyway, when kids learn to speak, they eventually learn that they are in control of their words. And eventually they can quiten their voice to a whisper or make it silent (a voice in their head). They are still aware of the voice. They come to learn that this voice is "them". And they can question their thoughts and their behaviour - and think about the past and future, etc. (Using language)
So anyway, in science, the mystery of "consciousness" is referring to human-type high-level self-awareness. (e.g. you can retrieve memories, think of the past and future, think of abstract things like perfection and then get depressed, etc)

Edit: fixed picture.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

Right Filip

From the different states of consciousness it is obvious that we are not our consciousness (never mind Cogito Ergo Sum) but are the identity that is capable of such consciousness, which is our soul. Our soul is our brain minus the limbic system which is wherein we are conscious of our immediate environment. Yes we are our soul and use our limbic system to keep abreast of changes in our environment for the purpose of adaptation.

Amos

PS I think your question was "what is it that experiences consciousness" which you described as electical impulses or whatever.


[This message has been edited by Amos123 (edited April 12, 2001).]

Here's my speculation:

Consciousness is an emergent pattern formed by a recursively defined symbolic representation of sensory experience, with the capability of perception of the knowledge web allowing for the recognition of similar patterns, generating metasymbols for the underlying sensory information.

*inhale*

These the primary metasymbol is the sense of self, as it is present in all sensory experience. Consciousness is the sufficient complexity of the knowledge web to use metasymbols as templates for new experiences and identification of new sensory experience with these metasymbols. IOW, abstract pattern recognition of experiences (metasymbols), templatization of new experience with metasymbols (prediction), and the sense of change in the metasymbolic self (consciousness).

So what is it that makes us feel individual and separate from other people when we parallel exactly the same physical processes on a subatomic level?
I feel I have hit it: It is the "phase transition".

To demonstrate how it works, all you need is a tripod, a camera and a bowl of water. At first place your bowl of water on the table and photograph it only once. After that, lower the temperature to freezing point so a crust of ice forms on the bowl of water and then photograph it once again. Let all completely thaw out and photograph it again. Repeat alternating from photographing it once each time water is thawed to once each time the water is crusted with ice over and over again thousands of times.

You then develop the film and print the photographs and compare at first all the liquid water images with each other and then all the ice crusted water images with each other. It would be no surprise that all the liquid water images would appear exactly as though they were all printed from the same negative. But as for the iced crusted water images, they would each have a unique pattern of ice lattices, and so each would be as unique a fingerprint with no two prints appearing exactly alike.

I questioned if my own individuality, that property that allow me to feel sentiently isolated from all other individuals is also an emergent property a similar principle a "phase transition". Just like there is a phase transition when matter goes from being liquid to solid, there is also a phase transition when matter changes from unconscious matter to the much more complex consciousness matter. As soon at matter reaches a critical level of complexity there is a flashpoint for consciousness , just a simple one speed version at first which fragments into many differing states.

There first of all has to be some evidence of a phase transition with human consciousness and at first I could not find any, until I heard of a finding in the Waikato University in New Zealand.

Good thoughts, but I think there's another layer underneath the phase transition that shows the commonality. In a liquid, all of the molecules are free to move around, but when they crystalize, they form connections with each other, being locked into place by these bonds. These connections are the important things. The lattice, flaws, and features of the crystal are all formed by the conditions that influence the connections. The patterns are emergent from these underlying operations, similar to conciousness being an emergent pattern of connections formed upon a simpler level.