Carrie

In Lev. 20:10 it says that if a man commits adultery with another man’s wife - with the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev. 24:17 says that if anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.

That is interesting because David slept with another man’s wife, and then he killed her husband, yet David was never put to death.

See 2 Samuel 11:3 - Bathsheeba was the wife of Uriah. And Uriah and Bathsheeba were neighbors because when David was in Jerusalem he saw Bathsheeba from his roof. And Uriah was a believing Jew (see vs. 11). David thought Bathsheeba was beautiful so he sent messengers to get her (so people knew about it).

Vs. 14 says that David sent a letter to Joab to tell him to put Uriah on the front line where the fighting would be fiercest.
So it’s likely they knew David wanted Uriah killed. And Uriah did get killed, though not directly by David. But David DID cause him to die, and he would have kept trying until he found a way to get him killed.

Vs. 27 says that the thing David did displeased the Lord. But the Lord did not kill David or make sure he was put to death. And people that knew about this but did not put David to death. 2 Samuel 12 shows that Nathan knew about it because he rebuked David for it. In vs. 13 Nathan said, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.” Nathan said David’s son through Bathsheeba would die. But David got Bathsheeba as his wife, and she (the adulteress) also did not get put to death.

That’s interesting how God has favorites. Any other person who did these things were to be put to death according to the
scriptures in Leviticus. God let David off easy, like O.J. Simpson. It’s nice that God was compassionate to David, but God was not compassionate to so many others.

God forgave David’s sin, and David didn’t have to make an offering or anything. He just said, “I have sinned.” But other people who did the same sin, even if they were sorry, were to be put to death for their sin.

So why was it that the people who knew David did this did not obey the commands of God? How do we know God really spoke to Nathan the prophet? Maybe Nathan just told David he
wouldn’t die because Nathan wasn’t going to let it happen, and who was going to put the king of Israel to death anyway?!

Celsus

Simple answer: the Pentateuch was written long after the life of David. David, Solomon... all the way till Hezekiah all seem to ignore the vast majority of the Pentateuch--you will struggle to find any mention of it or reliance on it as an authority, until Josiah. Now why won't Christians accept this concise, verifiable theory that fully ties up so many other loose ends? Oh that's right, because that silly Jesus went and spoiled everything by saying that Moses wrote it.

Joel

Old Man

But was that the fault of David? The punishment of the law was for the community to implement. If the community failed to implement the commandment, was David to be blamed?

The problem for God, was that he could not find anyone prepared to put David to death. Because whoever put David to death would have immediately been killed by David's armed men.

What you had was a situation where the law, vis a vis David, was effectively unenforceable, and David knew it. That is partly why he committed adultery, because he knew he was above the law.

Yes, and other people were also free to say "I have sinned" and be forgiven by God prior to the day of judgment. But will they?

As I have said, David had many friends, allies, sons. Everyone acknowledged David. Putting David to death would have been regarded like someone who put Bill Clinton to death in the USA for adultery. It would have been viewed as a mere act of "assasination" by David's political allies, and the "assassins" would have immediately been put to death themselves - just like they would in the USA.

Now you understand why God was against giving Israel a "king". Because as soon as you had a king, the requirements of the law became practically unenforceable against those in charge. But once again, the Israelites, by democractic will, were determined to have kings, and their kings in turn led them down the road to immorality, debauchery and heathernism, just like the rulers of occidental countries are still doing today.

Carrie

Yes, very interesting. However, God could have struck David down, like he struck a lot of other people down. Especially since there was no one else who was going to do it.

Why should God have forgiven David when he did not forgive so many others? For example, Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. Or the men who touched the ark and died instantly. And there are many examples.

It doesn't matter to me WHY God spared David. The point is, he did, when God could have struck him down himself, and that would have shown that even though no MAN could punish David, God could. But instead God did not show his judgement and power. David got a lesser and weaker punishment, done by God, when God could have just killed David in the first place and made his point.

And I don't know for sure that the reason God didn't want them to have a king was because that the king could do whatever he wanted and not follow the law. Anyway, God can enforce his law if he wants.

Old Man

I think there are two reasons:

Firstly, Israel could have descended in anarchy without a proper handover of power, and so it would have been the people who effectively bore the penalty for David's sin, rather than just David.

Secondly "Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins", God had regard to the many ways in which David had hono(u)red God in the past and chose to inflict a lessor punishment, allowing David time to repent.

In respect of Lot's wife, she had been given an immediate life/death command by the angel of God only a few moments before. She ignored the command and paid the penalty. A bit like "If you don't look before you cross the road, you will get run over". When the person gets run over, can God really be accused?

MortalWombat

So you're saying that it would have been unfair for God to punish a whole group of people for the sin of just one person?

Ever heard of Adam?

Old Man

Ever heard of Elijah & Enoch?

They both ascended directly into heaven, despite Adam's sin. Which goes to show that if God punishes man for sin, it is not for Adam's sin but his own.

(I reject the tranmission of original sin through birth theory of Calvinists, as finding no support in the bible. In any case, that would have inferred that Jesus was a sinner as well.)

Carrie

Har har har! Yes, I've heard of Adam, but obviosly I don't believe that whole story! Of course it's not fair to punish the whole world because of one man. And you don't punish the people for that man's sin without also punishing the man!

It's was not fair for God to create a whole world of people when he knew in advance that most would end up burning in hell forever. "Narrow is the road that leads to life, and only A FEW find it, but wide is the road that leads to destruction, and MANY enter through it." Would I choose to get pregnant if I knew my baby would be born with a disease that caused unceasing pain? No, obviously not. I'd be happy enough with just my husband, or I could adopt. God already had Jesus, and the angels, so why did he need to create us? Couldn't he have been happy enough without us, since he's God? Guess not. He was happier creating people he knew would roast in torment forever. He couldn't even be with them. How's that for happy?

Next time you see a playground full of children, imagine almost all of them burning for eternity. God lets all of them burn so he can be with that one.

I would rather just die and not go to heaven, rather than have everyone I know go to hell. Paul didn't even seem to like God's plan. He said, "I wish I were cut off" rather than the Jews.

Bible-god's plan sucks. Anyway, the REAL God has no such terrible plan, so I'm not worried about it.

I don't know why you WANT to believe the Bible! My old pastor thinks his mom is in hell, and he agonizes over it and gets mad at God. He obviously doesn't like it, but he doesn't know what else to believe besides the Bible. Wouldn't it be nice to believe that everyone goes to heaven, or at least believe most people won't burn in hell forever? I mean, it's not like it's impossible that you could be wrong. There's lots of evidence to support that the Bible is not really God's word. I know it's hard not to believe the Bible, when it seems so real, and since half whole world has believed for 2000 years. But the Egyptians believed their Pharaoh was God, and that belief was so real to them that they spent their lives building pyramids for the Pharaohs.

Old Man

Why not? The only people in hell will be those who chose it for themselves. You can't be fairer than give a man what he asks for.

Jesus is not on record as threatening any small child with hell.

God's plan is salvation for ALL men. But it seems your plan is to go to hell?

I reckon my mother is in hell too. She divorced her husband. I never heard her repent. She never read the bible. She had hardly any good works to her credit. She refused point blank to listen to anything I had to say to her on the subject. But I accept that that is what she chose for herself. I don't agonize about it.

And the Egyptians only built the Pyramids because they would have been executed if they had not obeyed (they were even executed even when they did obey - to keep the secrets of the pyramids preserved).

Carrie

I maintain my point.

The Bible says MOST go to hell. I don't believe in hell, so I don't think I'm going there.

If you don't feel for your mom, then your heart is hardened toward it.

And its' still not nice for a God to make a world of people he knows will burn.

Also, children may not go to "hell" but when you look at that playground of kids, you can imagine them growing up and going to hell. And it's an awful thought. But many Christians don't think about it, and harden their hearts so they won't feel it, and that's why most Christians do not share their faith much at all.

Good for you for at least doing what your God wants you to. However, you'd be more effective dealing with people you can see, not people on the computer on an atheism web site. Most people here have already made up their minds. Like I told Magus, you're wasting your time.