Mageth

Am I sure what is a fallacy? (BTW, I should have been calling it the Natural Law Fallacy, also known as the "Appeal to Nature").

Mageth

Keiths response:

So if the enslaving of Africans was the "social norm" at one time, then at that time slavery was not morally wrong? Would slavery have been wrong in ANY sense back then?

Slavery is not "morally wrong" under a moral systems that permits slavery, obviously - such as that found in the Old Testament, and that persisted in many countries from deep in history until a few hundred years ago. If you or I were a Jew in OT Israel, you or I would not have considered slavery morally wrong. Heck, even the NT writers didn't declare slavery to be morally wrong.

Fortunately, the global society did, and very well rightly IMO, adopt the moral standard that slavery is wrong. Note that this came decades before the U.S. finally ended the practice. I think slavery is morally wrong, obviously, because I myself would not wish to be a slave. Empathy and compassion are wonderful moral guides.

The enslavement of Africans in America, however, was quite a bit more complicated than the way you state it. Most other countries in the world banned slavery before the U.S. - and most if not all without fighting a bloody war over the issue.

In the U.S., if you recall, a war was fought because some people considered slavery not morally wrong (often using the Bible for support) while others considered slavery wrong (interestingly, also often using the Bible for support - so much for the objectiveness of the Bible). Fortunately, the War ended slavery in America, and brought America into "moral step" with most of the rest of the world.

Normal

I have to agree with Ensign Steve here.

Leviticus 20:13 should be enough for Christians to realize that the whole Bible is wrong.

Mageth

Keith seems to be avoiding the serious moral questions brought up by the OT, such as Leviticus 20:13, like the plague. How verses like that fit in with his mysterious, proposed "objective moral standard" based on the Bible I have no idea, and he doesn't seem willing or able to address.

Kandeda Trefil

I'm new, so there may be technical mistakes in my computer(ese, izing). That obligatory disclaimer having been summarily dispatched, I disagree vehemently with Keith's idea...if I understood him correctly...that slavery is OK in a mainstream society that accepts it. There are 2 concepts that should be considered: equality and hierarchy, which concepts are always at odds. Equality yields morality in interpersonal relationships, whereas hierarchy has a positive application only during our minority. When we achieve adulthood, it behooves us to discard hierarchy, to accept that we are the equal of others and to the best of our ability to forward an idea (equality) that those who have not reached philosophical maturity may not appreciate. Children often accept being told what to do, but adults can reasonably be expected to behave according to what they believe is best/right/kind/deserving. Societies often have, with great lack of initiative, allowed those "above" them to perpetrate depredations. After the fact, we roundly condemn them, rather than say, "O well then, Mr. Hitler, etc, it was OK to slaughter 10,000,000 Slavs because the mainstream accepted it." According to Keith, as I understand him, anything goes based on the numbers. If most agree that the depredation is acceptable, then it is.

But it ain't.

Keith

I have already addressed this by saying that God has every right to impose different legal/moral sets of do's and don'ts on individuals and groups. In Leviticus 20:13, God is ordering the Israelites that homosexuals caught doing "what is detestable" must be put to death. Was it not God's right to command this?

Mageth

Welcome, Kandeda Trefil.

It would help if you'd include a bit of the particular post to which your response is directed. I'm not sure, after reading the post, if you're responding to something Keith wrote or perhaps to something I wrote.

It also might help if you'd put a few line breaks in longer posts. Makes them easier to read.

I'll wait to respond until you clarify what comments you are responding to.

Mageth

And I've already responded to your response, which I find quite lacking - a "goddidit" response, really. So much for God's supposed "objective moral standard" based on the Bible, or on his nature, then. God's moral rules become arbitrary and subjective.

Keith

Hi, Kandeda! Actually you did misunderstand me, but no worries. I'm vigorously attacking the idea that slavery, rape, murder, and other moral evils can ever be morally justified on the basis of society's general acceptance of these things. They are morally reprehensible regardless how many people may say otherwise.

Normal

Do you believe all people caught practising homosexuality should be put to death?

Do you believe all children who swear at their parents should be put to death?

If you say "No" to either of these (or anything else in Leviticus), how do you justify yourself going against god's will in this instance, and not others?