lcb

is Paschal's wager "plus" whatever your take is on the archaeological/historical/evidentiary calculus (either pro-theist or anti-theist) still a dog in the fight?

Vorkosigan

Pascal's Wager is a joke. There are several articles on it in the Infidels Library.

But what is your own take? What aspects of the Christian mythos do you take for history, and why?

V

mibby529

I'll agree. Pascal's Wager is the most laughable theistic argument ever. Too bad for the theists it's the most famous. Um, let's see...False dichotomy, intimidation (It's basically another way of saying you're going to hell.) argument from ignorance...

lcb

i was thinking of the french philosophicaL school known as probabilism, when combined with paschal's wager...which suggests that some evidence trumps no evidence..and if that could change the dichotomy into a dichotomy "plus"? i may not be making much sense, but it seems that it may (go either way depending on your point of view-pro theist or anti-theist)...a christian i have been discussing it with posits the idea that if you study the issues and reject the theory that all the Israel restoration prophecies are self-fulfilled and you combine other evidecne with paschals' wager you make paschals' wager a valid wager. its complicated.

Vorkosigan

Ok, I'll play. ICB, show me ten fulfilled prophecies of Israel's restoration.

Vorkosigan

lcb

<a href="http://100prophecies.org" target="_blank">http://100prophecies.org</a> the section on "prophecies fulfilled in l948" the two leading detractors of McDowell really sidestepped this issue, and so far in skimming Tim Callahan he doesnt seem to address them yet either ( though in fairness to cALLAHAN I WILL keep reading his book),p.s. lcb is neutral in this debate-so far.then we can try John Nash's "Game theory" to this issue! it gets wild!

Toto

You're right there

So first of all you have to abstain from common sense, which tells you that the prophecies about the reestablishment of Israel were a self-fulfilling because the people who established the modern state of Israel had read the Bible and intended to reestablish a state there based on the Bible, and then you need some other unspecified evidence. . .

If you can't articulate this alleged theory any better than that, why don't you invite this Christian friend to the boards?

Since you are so hung up on these alleged 10 prophecies about 1948, let's go through them:

=====

1. The Jews would regain control of Israel
Self fulfulling.

2. Israel would be brought back to life
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
This duplicates 1, and is self-fulfilling

3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Well D'uh! Isreal declared independence on a particular day. (But then they had to fight a war to establish that independence, so this may not even be accurate.)

4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
There is only one Israel, but it does not control the territory of ancient Israel, and is still at war. I would not count this as fulfilled.

5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first
Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15

I don't see how he gets this prophecy out of the Bible passage. This is the same self-fulfilled prophecy as number 1.

6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
No he doesn't. The author performs some random calculations to get to the figure 2,484.

7. The Jews would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
How many times is he going to repeat this?

8. God would watch over the Jews
Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
This is not a prophecy, and it does not appear to be true. Israeli society is under siege from some teenaged suicide bombers, and God is not doing anything about it.

9. The Jewish army would be disproportionately powerful
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
Here is Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you...."

In the first place, Israel is a secular nation and is not in general following the Torah commands. In the second place, they don't use swords.

This is just not a specific prophecy. It is a covenant with YHWH.

10. The fortunes of the Jews would be restored
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5

This is more repetition of "Jews return to Israel." But it has not fully happened. There are still Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who have not had their fortunes restored.

====

Could you tell me what you find to be impressive about the prophecies? There is just nothing there.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

philechat

(Yawn) Have you checked the archeological and historical evidences of other religions? Like...Islam, the cult of Dionysos (also have a heaven/hell system), Quetzacoatl, Mahayana Buddhism, indigenous religions of Africa, Polynesia, etc. etc. Before you check the evidences of all the other religions in the world stop thinking Pascal's Wager would get you anywhere.

lcb

one, remember i am a debater and lcb is neutral here. you keep saying "self fulfilled", but offer no evidence it was "self fulfilled"-when i personally studied in detail the military after action reports for the battles fought in l948 and immediately thereafter i saw odds sometimes as bad as 75 to one against the jewish militia. arab armies armed in part with german equipment, etc etc....I am a historian and i have to tell you-it was a "miracle"/or secularly a "military miracle" that the jews defeated these attacking forces. So, i am afraid the Christians win this round of the debate-at this point.

lcb

philechat: have you checked the evidence for these other religions? In game theory analysis of "paschal's wager "plus"" you shift the lorenz averse progression exponentially up or down based on the amount of evidence you have or conversely, dont have. The Israel restoration prophecies-particularly the military details of the "miraculous" defeat of the combined arab attacking armies shifts the progression in favor of theism. Paschals' wager plus, remember, is a risk avoidance strategy(primarily). lcb is neutral in this debate, but I give this round so far to the Christians.