Proxima Centauri

Here's yet another child abuse scandal. This one's in Ireland.
Here's what the British BBC had to say about it.
Here's what the British National Sedcular society has to say about it.
These scandals just go on and on. I feel those who try to defend the Roman Catholic Church come what may are truely brainwashed.

livius drusus

And yet you posted your lecture on international life as a public repsonse to Ronin's implication, thereby opening the door to a discussion of your multicultural uprbinging and how you chose to express it once Ronin made clear how offended he was by Amos' statements.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Quite the opposite, in fact. Amos is an educated man living a privileged existence. If he has not taken the time to "fully understand the implications" of his theological constructs, then he shouldn't be surprised when he offends people who have.

You call it insults. I call it taking a stand against callous disregard for human life. Where's your vive la difference now?

My appreciation or lack thereof surely has no effect on your choice to focus on "correcting" Ronin's approach rather than Amos'. If it's a private conversation you want to have, then why are you still posting publically? As long as you continue to so, I will continue to read and respond to whatever I feel requires my response.

And yet, you didn't challenge Amos in the same manner even though his statements were certainly offensive to Ronin, myself, and who knows who else. Nobody is expecting you to flog the man senseless, but until Ronin insisted that your silence could be read as assent, you had no comment whatsoever on Amos' so-called argument.

I see no reason to be kind, gentle and loving (as Sr. Brighid kept telling me to be in 1st grade). I am not assuming a pedagogic role here. This is a debate between adults. As long as I maintain a reasonable tone devoid of invective, I can be as firm in my opinions as I wish. My goal, as I've said before, is take a stand against the paternalistic assumptions inherent in Amos' position. Crushing or cornering or educating do not enter into it.

Good luck. I hope your historical documentation doesn't qualify as protestant hate propaganda, cause he won't read that. Even when it happens to be eye-witness testimony from a catholic priest.

You can use any words you want, in as cashmere-soft a style as your heart desires. To quote Woody Guthrie: take it easy, but take it.

See, I find that patronizing. It is not my place to direct anyone's thinking. I state my case. I back it up, and then the rest is up to them. Here I stand. I can do no other. So help me nobody.

A public statement needs to be countered in public. The occasional jeer can be easily ignored. As for negativity, disagreement isn't pretty. It's the nature of the beast, and I have no problem with it until it degenerates into senseless assault. We haven't even come close to that boundary, imo.

Cela est bien dit, mais il faut cultiver notre jardin.

Celsus

Hi Amos,

Don't mind me jumping in to correct a few unchecked statements:
Ah, so you're just claiming theistic and cultural arrogance, not racism. Typical rewriting of history. Your example of Paris to excuse your lack of "spiritual superiority" is just silly.

Here is one example of indigenous religion subverting Catholicism. Livius Drusus' link to Bartolome de las Casas was another example of Catholicism being subverted for local agendas, in this case, political ones: It's called Liberation Theology and if you care to look, you'll notice that it's been coopted into the Marxist agenda. So if anything, this malleable Catholic theology of yours, if it mattered, will probably go the same way as other attempts. If it mattered.
So as we can see, you are wrong. You think they are absorbed, but rather, they are subverting your precious church. Marxist Catholics. Voodoo Catholics. vs. Amos-type Catholics. Hmm, several million vs. you. Who's going to win? The orthodox Catholics are already in their death throes, so what's going to be left? And would we care?
Have you met Ion ? He still can't see the problems with his whitewashing. And I suppose cultural arrogance is very hard for the perpetrator to detect because one has to unweave so many assumptions. It's probably far too much of an effort.

Re: Bartolome de las Casas
rofl. Nice sidestep. Any bad Catholic theology is Protestant theology. Round and round... But that's entirely besides the point! De las Casas was defending the natives! He didn't want the Spaniards to slaughter all and sundry. And thus liberation theology took root. And subverted your infallible but wrong Catholic church.

Joel

livius drusus

Does the economic and social status of the actual people enter into your thought process at any point? How about their health? How about their lives? Propping up mythologies is of minor importance when an entire continent of people is being decimated by disease or murder or enslavement.

I don't recall accusing you of hatred. I do see a paternalistic assumption of cultural superiority, however, and it is that which I find offensive.

Kipling believed that "savages" were improved by civilization, nomatter what the cost. Your above quoted comment implies the same.

If you don't read it, how do you know what it is? You admit your own ignorance regarding the history of the First Nations people in Canada. You are clearly equally ignorant of the fate of the Native Americans on the rest of the continent. If eye-witness testimony of the degradation and slaughter of these peoples is "hate propaganda", how exactly do you intend to inform yourself of what happened? Besides, as both Celsus and I pointed out, Las Casas was Catholic.

Unlikely.

Force a response? How odd. Whatever compelled you to believe you had to force me to respond? Did I come across as demure or retiring in some way? If so, allow me to make ammends and state for the record:

You can call me chicken and invoke the papal we whenever you wish. I will respond when I feel you have made an argument which is at least vaguely substantial enough for me to sink my teeth into. This one skirted the edge, let me tell you. I'm looking forward to the next one.

Amos

Why should I be concerned about about American politics if I am a not an American citizen? The only thing that enters my political thought process about America is aggressive materialism as a road to success.

It is superior for good reason and if you find that offensive you are a poor loser.

How do you reach that conclusion if Catholicism can overshadow and incorporate? The reason why they can do this is because all existing mythologies are transparent or the civilization would not exist. So there is no cost but only advantages to be gained.

Because it is impossible to be true and correct if there is only one ultimate thruth which is held by all mythologies wherefore they can be incorporated. The minor details of religion as a means to discover this noble truth is where the success of a mythology is evident and that is why Catholicism prospered.

Catholics fight and Catholics can be wrong. None of that matters in my argument because the truth for which the churchs stands is not the Catholics that are fighting. You look at the poor victim and blame the church while the church itself is an inspired institution under God and the bride of the lamb of God. The fact remains that the church is superior in its ability to have its believers transcend human understanding and that is where I defend the Church.

Why should I inform myself about history if that is the primary reason why history repeats itself?

Gurdur

heh, heh, Amos, name that "good reason".Heh, HEH: This is the catholic Church which caused all native religious relics, writings and and whatnot to be destroyed in South America during the Spanish conquest.
The same one which formed the Holy Inquisition to burn books and people in Europe, around much the same time.

You have most odd ideas about what constitutes "incorporation"; seems more like wanton forcible destruction to me.Yup, that Lamb Of God sure knew how to burn things and people - something not repeated till the Nazi bookburnings of the 20th century.
'Course, if they had only said they were advancing the cause of righteousness too, then it would be alright then, eh ?

livius drusus

America is a continent, Amos, not a country. Said continent includes the country in which you currently live as well as the ones collectively known as Latin America. If I had meant the United States, I would have said so.

Thank you for confirming that my interpretation of your comments was correct.

I don't consider the annihilation of millions of people and their cultures an advantage. Again, your personal theology is of no interest to me.

You talk of noble truths and the prosperity of the Catholic Church as if it were a purely metaphysical matter. In the Americas, that prosperity was bought by slavery and mass-murder. This is a of some import to me even if it isn't a factor for you.

The Church is still alive. The Tainos are all dead. The Church not only justified their genocide but provided practical support for it. In return, it was paid in gold and property and power. Now who is the victim again?

History repeats itself is an aphorism. It's not actually true, you know. People and circumstances are always different. And even if it were possible for history to repeat itself, somebody having cracked a book once or twice would hardly be the reason. Ignorance, on the other hand, has been the cause of many of history's worst horrors.

Sabine Grant

Good evening all... Ronin has asked me to post the following link to explain his absence from the thread for a while.

www.heraldsun.com ( page on Jan. 14th).

I hope the link will work as I had a hard time pasting it directly from the PM.

Sabine Grant

LIVIUS... and to ignorance , education is the best medecine.

I cannot honestly blame any individual who makes offensive statements based on ignorance. Amos replied to me that he knows very little about Native American history. I guess this is the opportunity for those who have knowledge of that history to refer Amos to links and documents where he can learn more about Native American history.

AMOS : I encourage you to set aside what you believe to be true about the church and reflect on historical facts. I can speak for catholic colonialism in Africa where entire tribes in the old Kingdom of Mali were massacred under the name of God. It was also and primarly the gate to slavery. And to mercantilism.

Senegal ( where I also grew up) and its Island of Goree was a storage " unit" for slaves in transit to America. The primary culprits of causing wars between tribes and exchanging prisonners for alcohol and cheap junk were representatives of three catholic nations: France, Spain and Portugal. Their slavery trade was approved and supported by their respective catholic monarchs.

The tribal system in itself is IMO a positive social structure. Amos, there should be nothing derogative about the term tribal.

The historical reality is that christian colonialism has unbalanced some cultures which can never recover. Wherever colonialism has been established by christian nations, it resulted in a loss of the identity of the people under the colonial dominion. Algeria still today deals with the consequences of French colonialism.

Native American culture was opressed and repressed under christian colonialism in America. It definitly was not part of indian tribes' dreams and aspirations for their people to be confined to reservations and survive on gambling facilities or operate a souvenir shop in a town like Cherokee for example. As far as shamanism is concerned Amos, the little I kown about it is that it promotes peace and harmony. A far cry from the cliche representations of savages.

Do some research on your computer about the term " First Nation" which applies to the history of Canada.

Also we may want to agree on certain terms regarding the distinction you make between " the Church" and christianity. Catholicism is regarded as part of the christian religion. In the course of human history, The Church was the decision maker over catholic people. It sanctionned any act of cruelty from catholics against humanity. It is difficult for me to separate the actions from the dogma which commanded them. I do not regard The Church as innocent as you do. The concept of believers being the Bride of The Lamb is different from what you expressed. I will refer you to the judgements over the 7 churches in Revelations for you to have an opportunity to examine which church is indeed representative of the christian God and is spared from judgement.

Amos

Hello Sabine, much the same happened here in Canada but as I understand it it was the protestant way of invading the territory. At first they would give the natives some gadgets, trinkets and alcohol in exchange for the richess of the land. Later they made deals and kind of fenced the natives into apartheid reserves while they occupied the rest of the land. Opposite this the Catholic way who themselves lived amongst the natives and out of this arrangement the Metis were formed who are now a very successful tribe. Do you see the difference?

Great, I love the tribal system with the chief in charge of the funds. Over here they seem to work OK because there is enough money for everybody. In that sense is Alberta like a litle Kuwait but I don't know how it works elsewhere. Casino's sound like a good idea because they seem to make lots of money (unless they are not after money in which case they chose the wrong business, or maybe, could it be that they like the glamour of neon lights?).

It was Ronin who called himself a "savage tribal heathen" and I wondered why. Did you know that the Catholic church promotes peace on earth? Yes, in fact, we are the only ones in the Western world who really know what peace on earth means (except the shaman, of course). In honor of this we crowned Mary "Queen of Peace."

No thanks, Sabine, I took some antropology and Canadian history but I always forget so easy. That is, it does not interest me so I forget the details and can't really present my position. I actually wrote and argument in favor of the post-mortem pardon for Louis Riel and I hear that just recently it has been granted. In Catholicism Christianity is the end of religion and so there cannot be a "Christian religion" or there would be temples in the New Jerusalem. There is no argument here and you must have wondered why we are called Catholic and not Christian if the Church had every opportunity to call us that.