Whispers

Hello Everyone,

As I have just joined this forum, and am hoping to learn and share ideas with you guys/gals, I was wondering if you would be kind enough to answer a few questions for me which will give me an idea into your beliefs or held views on certain subjects. This is so I can have an idea of where you stand with regard to a few things and will help me with questions that I constantly wrestle with...So we start on an equal footing, a little about myself...I am 30, married and living in the UK. I have been practicing Therevadan buddhism for the last 8 years, but of late I have been exploring the Christian tradition. I am a seeker of truth, wherever it is. I am open to your suggestions, thoughts and ideas ...Thanks for your time and help =).

1) I assume the majority of you do not believe in a creator. What do you believe in if anything with regards to how we are here?

2) in your opinion, if you drew a circle around everything in the universe, would the origin of how we got here come from within or from outside of the circle? An old question I know, but I am curious as to how you answer this?

3) Why is this forum here in the first place? Is it specifically to deny the existence of a creator? If so, why bother?

4) If you had the choice, would you prefer there to actually be a divine creator or not? If not, then what would you prefer?

5) Concerning the theory of evolution, what do you believe things are evolving from, at root?

6) Do you feel that we are literally just a fluke of nature/evolution?

7) How do you attach significance to your loved ones, if there is no creator or ultimate plan for us? If we are literally just flukes, than are we worthless? if not how not?

8) How do you define right and wrong? How do you know you are right in your definitions?

9) What is the worst that can happen if you believe in a god?

10) Does the theory of evolution, mean that there is no creator?

diana

Hi, Whispers, and welcome to IIDB.

You ask some interesting questions, and they strike me as honest and noncombative. Good on you.

However, the forum you chose to introduce yourself in is devoted specifically to arguments for and against the existence of god(s). Your OP strikes me more as a "get your feet wet" general religious questionaire.

For this reason, I'm moving it to General Religious Discussions so it can benefit from that audience. This is not meant as punishment or correction of any sort. I just think this discussion would fit better there.

d

Jet Grind

Just thought I'd give my answers to your questions.

1) Modern cosmology and biology has provided (at least hypothetical) answers to those questions. I certainly don't know with absolute certainty how we got here, but neither do you or anyone else.

2) Depends on which theory of the universe holds true. If the current inflationary universe model holds true then ours is just one in a much larger (perhaps infinite) multiverse, and our's just started as a quantum event within that system. I tend to believe in that sort of bottum up beginning to the universe since it is the most popular model in cosmology.

3) It's to provide a place for atheists and agnostics around the world to meet and discuss matters. Are you saying that we shouldn't have this just because we don't believe in a creator?

4) Depends. I'd really rather there not be some three-headed monster like Christian God. But, if it's someone nice who will really take care of me, then I guess I wouldn't mind it existing.

5) I don't have a clue what we originated from, if I had to make a wild guess it would be single-celled organisms.

6) No, we are not a "fluke" of evolution because natural selection does not intentionally do anything. The same thing goes for the words "accident" and "mistake". I'd say that we are a product of evolution by natural selection.

7) This is a fallacy of authority. If meaning to life has to be externaly imposed then yes, it is worthless. I am of the opinion that we and not some god give it meaning.

8) Depends on just what kinds of morality that you are talking about, it doesn't have to be theocentric (based of God or a higher power). It can also be egocentric (based on what's best for you), utiliatarian (based on whatever makes society a better place) and a whole slew of others.

9) Depends on which god, if you are a hardcore believer in the Islamic god then you would probably end up flying planes into skyscrapers. Believing in a god doesn't necessarily lead one to do horrible things.

10) I could see the theory of evolution allowing some sort of deistic, non-interventional creator. But I don't think it's compatible with any forms of traditional theism that I know of.

Godless Dave

I don't believe anything. I am pretty confident there is a scientific explanation for how we are here, but at this time I can't say for sure.

I don't know. My guess is outside the circle, but it's just a guess until humanity has more knowledge. (I don't expect to see this question answered while I'm alive BTW).

I come here to find fellowship with other non-theists. Many of us live in the US which, as you may know, is being overrun by godbots. These fora are a good place to meet like-minded people from all over the world. I am also very interested in comparitive religion and mythology, and there are some knowledgeable people on here.

Tough question. Probably not. I think I would prefer things as they are now. But sometimes I wish there were magical forces I could call on.

I don't understand the question. We are evolving from the first self-replicating organic chemicals on earth, I guess.

Yes.

My loved ones are significant to me, whether or not they are significant to existence as a whole. We are not worthless to each other, but as far as the entirety of existence is concerned we are insignificant, sound and fury signifying nothing.

If it causes harm to another human, it's wrong. I also think it's wrong to cause suffering to animals, depending how much they can feel it (I don't have much of a moral problem threading a worm onto a fishhook). I don't know I'm right, I just don't want others to suffer. I feel if most other humans acted that way we would be closer to the kind of world I want to live in. But again, in the grand scheme of things, whether we are kind or cruel to each other is meaningless. But it means something to us.

You could hijack a passenger jet and fly it into the Twin Towers.

Absolutely not. A scientific explanation of biology does not preclude a creator setting the whole thing in motion.

Selsaral

Howdy Whispers. Here's my answers:

1) I am a bit cynical about this kind of question. Many theists bust out the 'then how do you explain how we are here?' card in an argument. This is essentially the God of the Gaps argument. GotG explains everything we can't explain scientifically. In the old days, the gap was huge, and lightning, diseases, coincidences, luck, etc. were all the direct cause of gods/spirits etc. Now that we can give a nice explanation for lightning, suddenly gods and spirits aren't directly causing it anymore. Same with diseases, and many other things. I find this very suspicious. The trend is showing thousands of years of mistakenly ascribing the intervention of gods to perfectly natural phenomena that require no gods or spirits. Some of the last big questions science hasn't explained fully is the origin of the universe, and the origin of life, and that's where the GotG lives on. There could be a god in there, but we've been wrong so many times in the past, i am too suspicious to give any credence to that idea.

Furthermore, science has profound explanatory power, and has provided many good theories about how the universe arose (involving all sorts of physics and quantum mechanics that I personally know little about), and how life arose on this planet through purely natural processes. I've studied some geology, and its examination of the evidence is extremely powerful.

2) Er I have no idea. Although I am fairly ignorant of many modern theories about the big bang etc, I believe it suggests both space and time originated with the event. Therefore, this question wouldn't be relevant.

3) I see this forum as an interesting place where people can discuss philosophy, religion, politics, humor etc. It is well moderated and therefore usually doesn't break down into a pissing contest which preserves real discussion. As for its focus on atheism, I don't see it any different than the thousands of other web sites out there about particular subjects, such as politics, religion, music, etc. Everyone is welcome of course.

4) Well if the divine creator gave me and all my friends eternal life in happiness, then hell yes. You'd need to define what exactly your divine creator is supposed to actually do for me to really answer this. As for explanatory power, I find the concept of our current universe existing through purely natural means much more stylish and interesting than one that is posited by christianity for instance, though that is simply a personal opinion. And I find Tolkien's fiction about how the universe came about much more stylish than my naturalist theory too.

5) I don't think there is any accepted and well-founded theory about how the first life forms arose, although there are many interesting theories, but personally I don't think it will be long before some really great theories come out. I'm not much of a biologist, so hard to say. I've had the RNA World theory explained to me briefly, and I thought it was fascinating. Needless to say, I lean much more heavily towards a naturalist explanation than some sort of god or spiritual intervention.

6) I feel everything is simply a 'fluke of nature'.

7) I don't need a creator to give myself meaning, and I don't need a creator to love others. Ultimately, I think we are just animals on a planet filled to the brim with animals, that has seen a LOT of organisms come and go over the years. All we have is our lives, and we get out of it what we put in.

8) Morality is tough. When pretty much every human on the planet agrees with you however, it gets easier (i.e. it is NOT cool to go around murdering innocent people). Essentially, I have empathy towards other creatures (everytime I see an animal killed on the side of the road I wince in pain and feel a lot of sadness for it). Empathy leads me to treat others with respect. I think it leads others to respect me too. Notice that religion doesn't give a standard of morality either. One example would be abortion; some christians support the right to choose, others don't.

9) You mean if god doesn't actually exist? Well I'd be wrong for one thing. I like to learn things, and real things, not false things. This question is essentially Pascal's Wager, which I won't debunk any further, it's been done many times before, particularly on this web site.

10) Some say yes, some say no. I'd say not necessarily. I've noticed you seem to want to make the christian god and 'a creator' interchangeable. I think the christian god isn't compatible with evolution, unless you want to go the 'bible as allegory' route. The catholic church doesn't go that route (not too far at least), and they officially accept the theory of evolution, so there is plenty of room for wiggle here. A deist god, who simply puts things in motion and sits back is perfectly compatible with evolution.

Anyways, you wanted personal opinions, and there's mine.

diana

Now...I'll answer your questions from my viewpoint.

I don't. I'm confused, as a matter of fact, why anyone would be concerned with it, even. I guess I've always simply accepted that I exist, and it never crossed my mind to ask why. When I do bother to ask myself why I exist, I find I'm simply not interested enough in the subject to think about it, quite honestly.

I don't know. And like the first, I just don't care.

The EoG forum exists specifically to consider the arguments for and against the existence of god(s). This may strike you as incongruous, in light of how I answered 2 and 3, but I do care whether there's a god or not. If any of the world's religions are right, then this is not something I can afford to be wrong about.

No. I haven't thought about what I'd prefer in this vein because it's immaterial, has no bearing on the facts of the matter, and my "hopes" or "wishes" would serve only to blind me to the facts I'd rather not face. No matter how painful, what I'd prefer is to just have the truth.

Don't know. Never looked into it. It seems interesting enough to me, when I bother to learn a bit more, but on the whole, it is not a driving desire in my life. The more I learn about what evolution really claims, the more plausible (and obvious) I realize it is. But I have no clue where it all started or how.

That seems to be the most plausible explanation thus far. Until someone can produce a plausible alternative explanation, I'll default to evolution.

I'm not sure I understand this cluster of questions. Are you asking how I think love is possible? And what does being "worthless" have to do with the significance of my loved ones? Please explain this question further.

I define right and wrong based, to some degree, upon what my culture teaches me, but also upon reason. We establish rules that grease the gears of society because we are a gregarious animal and like to live in packs.

I don't know that we know we're right. There are different degrees of certainty, and it's doubtful we'll have 100% at any point. With "right" and "wrong," we often have different ideas how to categorize things.

Um...mental illness and insanity that leads you to homicide in the name of God. (Well...you did say "worst.") Pisspoor self-esteem. Overwhelming guilt. Fear of being watched. Fear of death. Fear of making the wrong decision NOW and paying for it for eternity. Wasting your life, your money, energy and talents, convincing yourself you aren't worthy so as to serve a being you don't even know is there. Inability to rationally defend your belief.

It doesn't have to. A creator could have set things in motion then popped out to the corner pub for a brew.

Judging from your questions, you seem fixated on the idea that you have to know things that are ultimately unknowable. I've never understood this viewpoint, this feeling that we have to have the answers and have to be right. It strikes me as remarkably egotistical.

I don't know who owned the first horse to defecate in what is now Colorado. The fact that I don't know this doesn't bother me. I think you'll agree that, despite the fact that humans were there and someone may have even known the answer to this once, it is now unknowable. Why, then, do you feel you need to know where everything came from? How evolution started? These things are even more unknowable than the answer to my silly question. But here's the thing: where we came from, how evolution started, and the defecating horse are all equally important in our lives now. That is, none of them have any bearing whatsoever upon our lives now. Not a crumb.

The only thing that does have bearing on us now, if any, is the existence of a god. If we can know with a reasonable degree of certainty that there is a god or gods, it would be personally important to each of us to ensure we were doing anything that might be required of that god, if anything was required of us at all.

d

dbporter

I like your understated approach. And, as you have started this thread (with the help of Diane), I will reveal that I am 56 (sounds so old), happily married to a wonderful wife, have two married sons, one in Germany to a wonderful German young lady, and a third engaged-to-be son. Life has not been a 'fairy-tale' though.

Does the way you phrase your questions indicate a "let's clear the deck and start from scratch" mentality, or an assumption on your part that 1) we humans are probably the only source for answers to these kinds of questions and 2) answers to questions like these can probably only be found through some kind of abstract reasoning, or what are your assumptions?

Peter Kirby

Hi,

I hope you enjoy your stay with us.

I don't attach any moral or philosophical significance to the precise manner in which homo sapiens came to emerge on the third rock from the sun, so I am not sure that I "believe in" (i.e. have faith in) a particular answer to the question of how we got here. I think that we ought to deal with what we do now that we know we are here independent of how we imagine it came to be.

I would seek to understand what is inside the circle, what is observable, before I try to speculate on things which are unobservable.

I think of the forum and its subject as part entertainment, part hobby, part obsession. I mostly hang out in "Biblical Criticism & Archaeology" (where I help moderate), as I am a former Catholic who retained in a strong interest in the history of religion.

If the creator could and would help us in some way, without bringing harm, I would think it better that it existed. If the creator does nothing much for us, the matter of its existence is neutral. If the creator plans on punishing some for eternity, our greatest achievement would be to kill it.

The theory of evolution applies to self-replicating organisms. So the answer would be, 'the first replicator'.

My feelings sometimes say, "we should be at the center of the universe." It is my head that answers, "you wish."

This question strikes me as a little strange. The significance that I attach to my loved ones is between me and them. The existence of an external entity or entities that might have schemes for humanity does not pertain to the feelings that I have for those who are close to me. I don't need validation from a god when I can get it from friends and family.

I am neither a typical objectivist, who thinks that what is right is what conforms to an eternal blueprint in the mind of God, nor am I a typical subjectivist, who thinks that what is right is what one believes to be right. I think of morality similar to the way that I think of architecture: some models won't get the job done at all (e.g. no roof to block out sun and rain), but there is no single perfect model that everyone must emulate (as if Log Cabins were the One True Architecture). There are constraints imposed by reality and human nature, but there is room for individual differences. I stole this analogy from Andrew Lias.

That the afterlife is structured in such a way as to punish eternally all who believe in a god.

The theory of evolution does preclude a notion such as monogenesis, that there was an original Adam and Eve formed from the dust by a supernatural entity. The biological theory of evolution does not speak of anything that came before the first living thing. So there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the idea that there was an intelligent cause of the universe.

best,
Peter Kirby

HRG

Just a few points (and I join the other answers)

How does a theist know that his alleged god is right in his definitions of right and wrong ?

Definitions are not true or false, correct or incorrect; they are useful or useless, common or uncommon, simple or complicated, consistent or inconsistent. They just make the left-hand side into a shorthand for the right-hand side.
That you believe in a false god, and the correct god - while accepting atheists - violently hates heretics.

No. The ToE - like all scientific theories - is neutral about creators.

regards,
HRG.

dbporter

Ye gads! This thread sprouts replies as I post replies!

Do I understand that a principle 'rub' in this forum is if god is mean or imposes? I try to distinguish what people characterize as god, and the possibility of knowing the real thing, even though much in Christianity and Islam, for example, does not invite much trust for the sane individual.