fleetmouse

I've been bantering with Nick Petreley on his morality forums and I just realized something -- Christians like to say that God is the source of morality, and some go so far as to say that the mere fact we have a moral sense at all is evidence of God.

If so, why do I find the slaughter of the Midianites repugnant? Why do I have a problem with Jepthah sacrificing his daughter to God? If my moral sense had its origin in God, wouldn't I feel that these acts of genocide and murder were perfectly justifiable?

You know, they say that budding serial killers are marked by a triad of symptoms: cruelty to animals, arson, and bedwetting. Well, the OT God demanded animal sacrifice, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, and now I'm wondering about the source of the Noachian floodwaters.

L

The Other Michael

Hi Lispli,

The obvious answer is: because you are not a True Christian (TM). As I see it, by definition anything God does is good and just fine with a True Christian (TM).

cheers,
Michael

fleetmouse

I just had a True Christian -- actually, a True Mormon -- tell me just that. God is God, He can do what he wants, and if I don't understand that, it's my problem. Nothing like a little God-polish to get your atrocities sparkling white!

L

Nu

I believe all morality is based on axioms, which are taken on faith, by defintion.

This is not to say that atheists can not make moral decisions, rather it is that they can not make moral decisions without relying on some sort of faith, albeit in a non-theistic idea.

If you think I am wrong, please prove it.

Nu

Here is a test example.

Put on your moral glasses and tell me what you think about the terrorist--or freedom fighter's--attack on the WTC.

Eventually you will find yourself relying on axioms such as these: killing is wrong, pain is bad, life is good, happiness is good.

If you are a moral relativist it hardly changes anything. Instead it would be like this: killing is sometimes wrong and sometimes right, life is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

free12thinker

You are wrong here. You claim that an atheist cannot make moral decisions without relying on some sort of faith. Faith is "blind trust" or, putting trust into something without fully knowing how it will slide either way. Murder and rape and sodomy and assault do not require blind trust in order to incorporate a right or wrong approach.

Instead, they are wrong by the reaction they bring. Not because we believe it may be wrong but do not fully know for sure. They are wrong because they yield negative consquences without bringing eventual good.

It's--I get hit, it hurts, I do not want to be hurt again--and since I know how it feels--I do not want to hit someone else. Things like this.
When societies develop, it wasn't hard to make rules of law based on simple ideas of humanity. Based on pain and suffering. Based on the progression of life. When someone hits someone, or worse, kills someone, the effects are immediately felt, not only from the person who was struck or killed, but by everyone else as well. There is an emotional and physical effect that automatically makes such acts bad. It's called reflex. It's called "hurt", or "life", or "pain".

These aren't thoughts or feelings that require an established set of guidelines in order to uphold them. Or a God for that matter. Now I am atheist and I would like for you to prove to me that I require some sort of faith in establishing morals.

99Percent

Real morality comes from reason as reason is what separates us from animals. Morality comes from the fact that we can distinguish truth from intentional falsehood. Animals don't have a concept of falsehood. Morality comes from distinguishing intent from random acts of others. Morality comes from free will, the ability to choose actions instead of acting on instincts.

Theists know that reason goes against faith so they very conveniently say morality comes from God instead.