livius drusus

This is an open discussion, and not a private matter. I am not only entitled to express my opinion, but I believe I am bound to do so, particularly when it comes to taking a stand against the kind of racialist, white man's burden claptrap espoused by Amos on this thread.

I am not attempting to rescue Ronin by supporting his position. I simply agree with his assessment of Amos' comments and find your response to his concerns opprobrious in principle and coldly insensitive in practice.

Sabine Grant

It became a private matter to me the moment Ronin implied that I supported Amos' thinking and therefor I might agree with his statements. I simply refuse to jump to the conclusion that Amos understands fully the implications of what he expressed. I want to hear more from Amos directly and less from other individuals assuming.

What you qualify as lukewarm questions to Amos I evaluate to be a constructive approach to ongoing communication. Again I do not approve of methods where insults are used .

Whether you appreciate it or not, my thoughts on native Americans and how I feel Ronin has a better way to reach Amos on that topic will be expressed to Ronin privatly.

As far as my exchange with Naked mage, he directly and without any assumptions on my part or interpretation told Amos " you are a schyzophrenic". He was challenged by me to review his thinking and realize why his statement can be offensive. I gave him valid arguments and we both reached the level of him admitting he was mostly joking and my giving him a hug in return.

Again what is to be accomplished here? do you want Ronin to be able to give means to Amos to revise his thoughts or do you want to see a broken communication where nothing is accomplished? what is your goal as you share your opinions with others? to crush them and corner them or to educate them and reach them?

I believe that Ronin is in the best position to enable anyone who expresses prejudicial thinking towards his ancestry to revise his thinking and modify his mentality. But it cannot be accomplished by calling him a bigot. Most bigots do not even understand the implications of bigotry. I have never changed the mind of a racialy prejudiced person by calling them a racist. I only vented my frustrations. Educating that person is the way to go. Providing historical documentation. Asking them questions where they have to do some research themselves to be able to reply.( there is a specific reason why I used the term " First Nation" in my questions and that is because I do pay attention to the fact that Amos lives in Canada)

As far as my comments in regard with Amos ways of expressing himself, it was my general observations of the various threads he participates in. Also the fact that I do not restrict myself to evaluate someone I have never met in person especialy as it comes to cyber communication. I do not use the practice in my daily life of calling people idiots or mentaly ill or bigots or many other terms too often used in those threads so I am certainly not going to do it in this cyber environment. Certainly not under any kind of peer pressure.

Now draw the conclusions you want to draw. In any case, I will not fuel Ronin's fire but rather give him arguments and privatly to explore further why Amos can think that way and how he can enable him to modify his thinking. If I did not think that Ronin has a great potential to be influencial I would not address it.

I believe it is more a compliment and tribute to Ronin's intellectual brio to encourage him in that direction.

Some of those issues get resolved better via PM as they eliminate comments from others that feed the ongoing negativity between two people. It becomes an arena where jeers abound and frankly nothing is accomplished.

We obviously all have different reasons to communicate in this forum. We also are human beings behind those screens and noone can pertain to know the circumstances in our lives without a personal relationship. Our entire perception of that cyber identity can change once we become more aware of his circumstances. And there is always a lesson to learn.

Amos

Racialist? White man's burden claptrap? I don't get. Please clarify.

This has something to do with the Catholic church's ability to overshadow and incorporate minor mythologies? Correct?

Before you make such accusation you should prove me wrong and it just is not good enough to say that you did not understand or that you do do not agree with me.

Edited to add that just in case you can't you do not need to reply and we will understand your courage.

Amos

So could you please show me where I did this? It seems like you all know where it is but I can't find it.

Amos

While looking back on this tread to find reason for your anger I came across this one. Somewhere I feel the need to reply and maybe this is the place.

No it is not a happy song in itself. It is revolting for many but in a slightly different way as it is another dark dirge for you. For others it is a song of love.

So what makes you think you are a savage tribal heathen?

Amos

Ronin, was this the offensive post against tribal America?

Amos

So where was I asked to show compassion or understanding?

Where did I treat your ancestry with bigotry and arrogance?

What is their plight anyway?

Amos

Hello Sabine, I did write a post to this that same evening but it seems to have become lost.

I am not familiar with the treatment of Native Americans. Like I never studied history here and I am not involved with the treatment of Indians. I have heard it said that the the reason why there is more native Americans in Canada is because the early American settlers shot most of the natives. Have you heard anything like that? Here in Canada they are now trying to settle some of the land claims. It has been agrued that the total land claims are bigger than Canada, so that can't be true either.

My distant neighbor is an native Canadian and he runs in the chuckwagon races. He is pretty good and ran at the Calgary Stampede once. As for me? It is easy for me to make friends with them. I have a reserve pass, work with them often and drank lots of beer with them.

livius drusus

You implied not once but twice that "tribal america" was inferior to so-called Western Civilization and that we should therefore be thankful for the "civilizing" influence of the Catholic Church. The notion of "christianizing" the savages was a common rationalization for the paternalistic brutality of 19th c colonialism as evinced in Kipling's poem The White Man's Burden.

Perhaps you are so accustomed to speaking in impenetrable metaphor that you are unable to see how the overshadowing and incorporating of minor mythologies translated into slavery, pestilence and genocide for the holders of said minor mythologies. For more information read Bartolome' de las Casas, a priest and missionary who saw first hand the viciousness and slaughter perpetrated by other priest and missionaries as well as the lay christian overlords to the native peoples of the Americas.

Here's but a small sample from Las Casas' 1552 work A short account of the destruction of the Indies:

You can find a larger exerpt from that work here, but there is little else of his online. If you actually want to inform yourself on the price your nebulous theological contructs have exacted in actual human suffering, I suggest you read Las Casas' In Defense of the Indians and the Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies.

The day that I expend more than 5 seconds of my life attempting to untie the gordian knot of Amosian catholicism is the day I voluntarily lock myself up insane asylum for life. My sole concern in this thread is your callous disregard for, and self-proclaimed total ignorance of, the life and cultures of the peoples "absorbed" into your mythology at bayonette point.

This sentence doesn't parse in any form of English I'm familiar with, but it certainly smells like an aspersion. Either way, it is of minor interest to me. I am curious about your use of "we", however. Are you claiming to speak for Sabine or the other posters on this thread? Or has John Paul II given you use of the Papal "we" for services rendered, perhaps?

Amos

The implication that "tribal America" was inferior to Western civilization is based on the ability of the Catholic church's to overshadow and incorporate all minor mythologies. This ability would leave their minor mythologies virtually intact but absorbed under the wings of the Catholic church in effort to advance the economic and social status of the minor mythologies. It has nothing to do with spiritual superiority because in this same tread I referred to the clochards of Paris as the true saints and added that Paris was proud of them. This was also the reason that Victor Hugo could romanticize them.

Here is the quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amos
That's your opinion but you might agree that without them you would still be living in tribal America? Nah, they would have never got there yet! Maybe you'd still be figthing wars with sticks and stones in tribal Europe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see any hatred in the above quote?

Sorry if your mind is full of hate but leave me out of it and don't bring in Kipling to present my point of view.

Sorry I never read hate propaganda and regard it as protestant theology.

I think you aready have but do not realize it. You might if you understood why Paul was "singing in prison."It was just my way to force a response.