Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Starboy · 05-09-2003, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
Likely those slaves were better off under Washington than they were under the heel of the Africans who sold them into slavery to begin with.

Yguy, I hope you are not condoning slavery. Are you?

Starboy

yguy · 05-09-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Yguy, I hope you are not condoning slavery. Are you?

Starboy

If I were, you wouldn't have to ask.

brighid · 05-09-2003, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Likely those slaves were better off under Washington than they were under the heel of the Africans who sold them into slavery to begin with.

Really ... how so? What does the fact that Africans of different conquering tribes engaged in slave trading have anything to do with the reality that some of our founding fathers bought and kept slaves in the first place? Are you meaning to say that it is somehow less immoral for them to have partook of the slave trade because men of black skin sold some of their brothers into slavery? Please tell me you are joking!

Brighid

mike_decock · 05-09-2003, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
He did have an excuse. He had no knowledge of good and evil.
Mike decock

Yes he did!

No he didn't! (convincing, huh)

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He�knew he wasn't to eat from the tree of knowledge, to eat was to be bad, it was not allowed, hence Adam KNEW that he was going against God's will, and God's will is good right?

He was told not to eat from the tree of knowledge and warned that he would die. He knew that doing so was contrary to what he was ordered but he did not have the ability to determine that it was evil since he had not yet consumed the fruit which would give him that knowledge.

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So Adams action was bad, as it was going against the wish of God.

I'm not concerning myself with the goodness or badness of the action. The flaw is that Adam cannot be held morally accountable for it.

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Adam KNEW before eating form the tree of KNOWLEDGE.

No he didn't. He didn't become aware of his own nakedness or feel guilty until after he ate from the tree.

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So did Adam already eat of the tree or what?

Adam obviously had no knowledge of good and evil until after he ate the fruit because he was not ashamed of his nakedness until he ate it.

-Mike...

Darth Dane · 05-09-2003, 08:26 AM

Did God say to adam why he couldn't eat from it?
Did adam not know that by eating teh apple he was going against the command of God?
Did adam have self-awareness?
Did adam have self-conciosuness?

He was told he would die, the idea of death would be bad wouldn't it?

If no to these answers, then yes Adam cannot be held accountable for the fall from grace, this in turn could mean, that we are supposed to be here experiencing reality as we do!

DD - Love Spliff

mike_decock · 05-09-2003, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Did God say to adam why he couldn't eat from it?

Yes.

Quote:

Did adam not know that by eating teh apple he was going against the command of God?

No. He knew it was going against the command of God. He didn't know that going against the command of God was bad.

Quote:

Did adam have self-awareness?

No. He was not aware of his naked self until he ate the fruit.

Quote:

Did adam have self-conciosuness?

No. He was not conscious of his naked self until he ate the fruit.

Quote:

He was told he would die, the idea of death would be bad wouldn't it?

Since there is no record of any death (human or animal) when God gave the warning, death would be meaningless threat.

Quote:

If no to these answers, then yes Adam cannot be held accountable for the fall from grace, this in turn could mean, that we are supposed to be here experiencing reality as we do!

Adam cannot be held responsible for the fall from grace.

I don't assume that we are supposed to be experiencing reality one way or another since I don't assume there is a purpose to our experience.

-Mike...

yguy · 05-09-2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Really ... how so?

I'm betting their living conditions were better. If your lot is to be a slave, perhaps a cabin is preferable to a tent.

Quote:

What does the fact that Africans of different conquering tribes engaged in slave trading have anything to do with the reality that some of our founding fathers bought and kept slaves in the first place? Are you meaning to say that it is somehow less immoral for them to have partook of the slave trade because men of black skin sold some of their brothers into slavery?

Nothing I said addresses the morality of slavery one way or the other, and skin color is peripheral to the issue. However, owning a slave cannot be rightly considered a universal evil in my view, especially in an America where blacks could be legally hunted down like dogs just for roaming free. A white man who kept a slave in those days COULD be doing a black man a favor, even if on average they were treated like dirt.

Starboy · 05-09-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
If I were, you wouldn't have to ask.

So the answer is "No, I am not condoning slavery."?

Darth Dane · 05-09-2003, 09:31 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Darth Dane
Did God say to adam why he couldn't eat from it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.

Did Adam understand this?

No. He knew it was going against the command of God. He didn't know that going against the command of God was bad.

What was teh point od God telling him then?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did adam have self-awareness?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. He was not aware of his naked self until he ate the fruit.

Was he self-aware on other parts of himself, i.e. I can talk, or I exist in teh GoE.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did adam have self-conciosuness?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. He was not conscious of his naked self until he ate the fruit.

Was he concious about the fact that he coulk communicate?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He was told he would die, the idea of death would be bad wouldn't it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since there is no record of any death (human or animal) when God gave the warning, death would be meaningless threat.

The "I am" statement has importance here, because if Adam knew he existed and was alive, then Adam could be able to see that death is teh opposite of life.

Adam cannot be held responsible for the fall from grace.

OK

I don't assume that we are supposed to be experiencing reality one way or another since I don't assume there is a purpose to our experience.

Why do you stay alive? Why do you choose to stay alive, if there is no purpose?

Maybe the purpose is to have fun?

DD - Love Spliff

Darth Dane · 05-09-2003, 09:33 AM

Double post

DD - Love Spliff

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05-09-2003, 08:26 AM	#135
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Did God say to adam why he couldn't eat from it? Did adam not know that by eating teh apple he was going against the command of God? Did adam have self-awareness? Did adam have self-conciosuness? He was told he would die, the idea of death would be bad wouldn't it? If no to these answers, then yes Adam cannot be held accountable for the fall from grace, this in turn could mean, that we are supposed to be here experiencing reality as we do! DD - Love Spliff

05-09-2003, 09:31 AM	#139
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Darth Dane Did God say to adam why he couldn't eat from it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Did Adam understand this? No. He knew it was going against the command of God. He didn't know that going against the command of God was bad. What was teh point od God telling him then? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did adam have self-awareness? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. He was not aware of his naked self until he ate the fruit. Was he self-aware on other parts of himself, i.e. I can talk, or I exist in teh GoE. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did adam have self-conciosuness? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. He was not conscious of his naked self until he ate the fruit. Was he concious about the fact that he coulk communicate? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He was told he would die, the idea of death would be bad wouldn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since there is no record of any death (human or animal) when God gave the warning, death would be meaningless threat. The "I am" statement has importance here, because if Adam knew he existed and was alive, then Adam could be able to see that death is teh opposite of life. Adam cannot be held responsible for the fall from grace. OK I don't assume that we are supposed to be experiencing reality one way or another since I don't assume there is a purpose to our experience. Why do you stay alive? Why do you choose to stay alive, if there is no purpose? Maybe the purpose is to have fun? DD - Love Spliff

05-09-2003, 09:33 AM	#140
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Double post DD - Love Spliff

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