Freethought & Rationalism Archive

L'ame Errant · 02-20-2003, 07:22 AM

Though I've never read them all cover to cover, the Jewish Mishna (oral laws finally written down, with lots of biblical commentary) tells of a "false prophet" around the time of Jesus.
I don't think the question is did Jesus exist, but whether or not he rose from the grave. Which, personally, I don't think can have any evidence anyway. For one- it was 2000 years ago, so anything we say now is bound to be influenced or changed and 2) I forget who said it (possibly Kosh) but the NT was written minimum of 40 years after the cruxifiction.

And on an unrelated (or somewhat related

) topic; the movie "The Body" disscusses this same topic. What if an archeologist found the tomb of Jesus and a body was in it???? What would that do to the Christian faith???

~Maxine~

Kosh · 02-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
The reason I labour the point that the disciples and followers of Jesus GENUINLY believed the resurrection is to counter the argument that the Gospels are in some way a fabrication cobbled together by the disciples from impure motives.

I understand WHY you make the claim, the point is that your claim is unsupported by any kind of evidence. It's simply speculation, based on a predetermined assumption of truth.

Quote:

It is always a puzzle to some why there are so few extra-biblical references to Jesus. (Pliny makes a few references as does Josephus, although Josephesus's accounts are questioned by some. Interestingly, not only does Tacitus mention Jesus, but he refers to the fact that his followers believed that He had risen.)

We say it because it's a fact. And BTW, we're talking about contemporary references. Those you listed above were made well after the time of Jesus, and could have also been influenced by mythology.

Quote:

Finally, can you tell me one historical fact that the Bible has got wrong?

1. The geologic age of the Earth
2. The helio-centric model of the solar system
3. The diet of snakes
4. That rabbits don't chew their cud
5. The world wide flood for which there is absolutely no evidence (in fact, contradicting evidence)
6. The Exodus
7. The extent of Solomons and Davids "empire"
8. Either: a) the relational layout of Judah or b) the ability of the disciples to travel incredible distances quickly while on foot
9. The virgin birth (including conflicting details)

I could go on, but you can find all this in the SecWeb lib, and it has been discussed ad nauseum here.

Gooch's dad · 02-20-2003, 08:09 AM

No, malookiemaloo, we don't know that the disciples necessarily believed in a literal bodily resurrection. That belief seems to have evolved over the first 50 or so years of Christian belief.

As for the disciples lying--don't the gospels record Peter lying (in denying knowing Jesus) 3 times? Whoops, too bad.

Bad history? Most of the nativity accounts seem to be fabrications, for starters.

The date of the Nativity in Luke

Have a look at that essay. One or both of the writers of Luke and Mathew was making stuff up, big-time.

-Kelly

braces_for_impact · 02-20-2003, 08:25 AM

Kosh, you beat me to it!

Doh! In any case, it has been shown that people are more than willing to lie for a cause, even die for it. This does not make it "the truth". May people have died or lied for a great amount of silly reasons, including christianity.

To put forth evidence from a book which has been voted into existence, translated, mistranslated and altered is irresponsible. Also as mentioned, according to scholarly consensus, it was not the actualy disciples themselves which wrote the books in the new testament.

As far as Pliny and Tacitus, they make mention of Jesus's fiollowers, not Jesus himself. This is long after his supposed death. Josephus is an interpolation at best, and an outright lie at worst.

Regardless of whether Israel was a backwater area or not, we have plenty of records from that time period, by the Romans, Pharisees and others. Some common inconsistencies are:

Herods destruction of boy babies.
Pontius Pilot being governor during the time of Jesus.
A Roman census during the supposed time of Jesus' birth.

And many, many more...

malookiemaloo · 02-20-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
I understand WHY you make the claim, the point is that your claim is unsupported by any kind of evidence. It's simply speculation, based on a predetermined assumption of truth.

We say it because it's a fact. And BTW, we're talking about contemporary references. Those you listed above were made well after the time of Jesus, and could have also been influenced by mythology.

1. The geologic age of the Earth
2. The helio-centric model of the solar system
3. The diet of snakes
4. That rabbits don't chew their cud
5. The world wide flood for which there is absolutely no evidence (in fact, contradicting evidence)
6. The Exodus
7. The extent of Solomons and Davids "empire"
8. Either: a) the relational layout of Judah or b) the ability of the disciples to travel incredible distances quickly while on foot
9. The virgin birth (including conflicting details)

I could go on, but you can find all this in the SecWeb lib, and it has been discussed ad nauseum here.

Well, I guess I asked for that!!

Let's select one. Is it appropriate to discuss the virgin birth?

malookiemaloo

Kosh · 02-20-2003, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
Well, I guess I asked for that!!

Let's select one. Is it appropriate to discuss the virgin birth?

As you wish. Star another thread.

And you can come over to evo/cre and talk about the flood too. I hear they're bored over there. I promise to take it easy on you because your a Scot.

Kosh · 02-20-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmborr
So what's wrong with the herders in the Bronze Age ? I bet you they knew their sheeps by name. What do you know about the guts of your PC ?

After 20 years as a software engineer, I've forgotten more about the guts of my PC than most people will ever know...

Why, I remember the first time I installed a hard disk in my 8086... a whopping 10 megabytes so I could run Turbo Pascal 1.0....

Animesh · 02-21-2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
The reason I labour the point that the disciples and followers of Jesus GENUINLY believed the resurrection is to counter the argument that the Gospels are in some way a fabrication cobbled together by the disciples from impure motives.

Mmmm . . . Correction there: the New Testament tells us that the people that finally wrote down the stories genuinely believed that the disciples and followers of Jesus genuinely believed in the resurrection.

JFK was killed 40 years ago. Even with our much-much-better record keeping, I still hear some amazing speculations on that. From people that genuinely believe in their pet theory.

Old Man · 02-22-2003, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
I understand WHY you make the claim, the point is that your claim is unsupported by any kind of evidence. It's simply speculation, based on a predetermined assumption of truth.

Are we prone to exaggeration, or is this just mere bias?

Kosh · 02-23-2003, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
Are we prone to exaggeration, or is this just mere bias?

Non sequitor. Does not compute. Please rephrase to clarify.

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02-20-2003, 07:22 AM	#21
L'ame Errant Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Beletgeuse 5 Posts: 8	Though I've never read them all cover to cover, the Jewish Mishna (oral laws finally written down, with lots of biblical commentary) tells of a "false prophet" around the time of Jesus. I don't think the question is did Jesus exist, but whether or not he rose from the grave. Which, personally, I don't think can have any evidence anyway. For one- it was 2000 years ago, so anything we say now is bound to be influenced or changed and 2) I forget who said it (possibly Kosh) but the NT was written minimum of 40 years after the cruxifiction. And on an unrelated (or somewhat related ) topic; the movie "The Body" disscusses this same topic. What if an archeologist found the tomb of Jesus and a body was in it???? What would that do to the Christian faith??? ~Maxine~

02-20-2003, 08:09 AM	#23
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	No, malookiemaloo, we don't know that the disciples necessarily believed in a literal bodily resurrection. That belief seems to have evolved over the first 50 or so years of Christian belief. As for the disciples lying--don't the gospels record Peter lying (in denying knowing Jesus) 3 times? Whoops, too bad. Bad history? Most of the nativity accounts seem to be fabrications, for starters. The date of the Nativity in Luke Have a look at that essay. One or both of the writers of Luke and Mathew was making stuff up, big-time. -Kelly

02-20-2003, 08:25 AM	#24
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Kosh, you beat me to it! Doh! In any case, it has been shown that people are more than willing to lie for a cause, even die for it. This does not make it "the truth". May people have died or lied for a great amount of silly reasons, including christianity. To put forth evidence from a book which has been voted into existence, translated, mistranslated and altered is irresponsible. Also as mentioned, according to scholarly consensus, it was not the actualy disciples themselves which wrote the books in the new testament. As far as Pliny and Tacitus, they make mention of Jesus's fiollowers, not Jesus himself. This is long after his supposed death. Josephus is an interpolation at best, and an outright lie at worst. Regardless of whether Israel was a backwater area or not, we have plenty of records from that time period, by the Romans, Pharisees and others. Some common inconsistencies are: Herods destruction of boy babies. Pontius Pilot being governor during the time of Jesus. A Roman census during the supposed time of Jesus' birth. And many, many more...

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