Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hoffma · 03-30-2002, 06:59 AM

<a href="http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_1058979,00.html" target="_blank">Bradley County Commission rejects request to post Islamic tenets</a>

Quote:

CLEVELAND, Tenn. - Bradley County, one of several Tennessee counties that voted recently to post the Ten Commandments, has been asked to extend its endorsement of religious documents in public places to include the Five Pillars of Islam.

The county commission has been asked several times by Rachel Cate, a student at Cleveland High School, to post the Islamic document alongside the Old Testament one.

<snip>

Quote:

"At this point we have our agendas full, and there's no point in the immediate future to address that," Commission Chairman Mike Smith told Cate.

Smith said he respects Cate's beliefs but believes that it would be inappropriate to post the Five Pillars, particularly since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that have been blamed on Islamic extremists..

Christians, however, have either matured past extremism or the acts are so few and far between that it’s pointless to argue that Christian extremism even exists. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Quote:

One of the commissioners, Howard Thompson, debated with Cate during her last appearance over whether there are five or six pillars, contending the sixth pillar is "jihad," or holy war.

There are actually five pillars, not six, according to The Columbia Encyclopedia.

Well played, Thompson. Well played.

Quote:

Cate has contacted the American Civil Liberties Union in Tennessee. The ACLU's executive director, Hedy Weinberg, said she appreciates Cate's efforts, although the organization would oppose actually posting the Five Pillars of Islam for the same reasons it opposes posting the Ten Commandments.

"Rachel Cate asked them to post another religious document in the hope of having them understand that county governments cannot and should not promote one religious doctrine over another," Weinberg said. "Any county commission needs to recognize their responsibility is to uphold religious freedom for all people in their community."

Grumpy · 03-30-2002, 08:41 AM

I'm wary of these ecumenical tactics. By challenging 10C supporters to also support other religious tenets, they are able to reject them and say, "We're not talking about religion; this is history."

The plain fact is that 99% of the United States (by history, not population) derives from a Christian heritage. You can't argue with that.

You can argue that the motivation for erecting religious monuments on government property is nothing short of imposing religion. And part of the heritage of the USA also guarantees that the government shall be secular and that such impositions are impermissible.

cartman · 03-30-2002, 08:48 AM

Yeah, there's been an epidemic of 10C nonsense in Tennessee, lately. At last count, 82 out of 95 counties had adopted similar resolutions regarding posting the 10C's as a "historic" document. There's a busybody going around convincing county commissioners that U.S. law is based on the 10C's--a highly questionable conclusion, at best. (There are several stories on II's Newswire related to this.)

I wrote my local paper suggesting (among other things) that if they insist on ignoring church/state separation and posting the 10C's, the Pillars of Islam as well as other religious documents must be included to avoid an establishment of [the Christian] religion. [Edited to add that even then it would constitute an establishment of religion, just not a particular one. Also, although the First Amendment addresses Congressional action, the Supreme Court has, in its rulings, applied the principle to any entity of government.] Predictably, it fell on deaf ears--or, I suppose, blinded eyes, in this case.

One would think that they could find better ways to waste my money. Lawsuits are inevitable and the counties will, in all likelihood, lose their misguided challenge to the U.S. Constitution.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: cartman ]

Ergo Sum · 03-30-2002, 10:05 AM

In my town, there was recently a lawsuit presented challenging the legality of a 10 Commandments plaque in the county courthouse. I believe it wasn't the ACLU representing the plantiff, but another similar organization. Anyways, it has triggered a huge backlash amongst the Judeo-Christian community, which comprises about 95 percent of the population. Some are saying that posting the 10 Commandments is not a violation of church-state separation. Others are ignoring the legal issue and basically claiming that there would be chaos if the Commandments were not posted. I try to argue with the first group that posting things like, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me," and "Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath day," in a government building is the antithesis of church-state separation. I don't bother arguing with the second group.

It's remarkable that in this day and age, in a supposedly progressive and socially liberal society, that a thing like the 10 Commandments being posted still happens. I suppose evangelism is not dead, particularly in the south.

[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Ergo Sum ]

NYC Gus · 04-01-2002, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cartman:
Also, although the First Amendment addresses Congressional action, the Supreme Court has, in its rulings, applied the principle to any entity of government.

The <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html" target="_blank">Fourteenth Amendment</a> to the constitution prevents states from denying citizens rights afforded by the constitution- therefore states cannot make laws which violate the 1st Amendment.

cartman · 04-02-2002, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NYC Gus:


The <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html" target="_blank">Fourteenth Amendment</a> to the constitution prevents states from denying citizens rights afforded by the constitution- therefore states cannot make laws which violate the 1st Amendment.

Yes, it does. Thanks for the link.

Quote:

...No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;...

MOJO-JOJO · 04-02-2002, 06:03 AM

Like they say, "the Majority rules." Not everyone in TN is a bible-thumpin', God-fearin' christian....but like the rest of the South, they ARE probably the majority.

Jamie_L · 04-02-2002, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MOJO-JOJO:
Like they say, "the Majority rules."

Majority rule with minority rights. That's what this country (U.S.) is supposed to be about.

Jamie

The Resistance · 04-02-2002, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:


Majority rule with minority rights. That's what this country (U.S.) is supposed to be about.

Jamie

That's what it's suppose to be about. However, in reality, minority rights aren't respected until the majority decides to go along with it.

04-02-2002, 08:25 PM

I myself live in the before mentioned city of Cleveland, Tennessee, and just prior to the young woman who asked the county commission to post the Five Pillars,I was considering legal action myself.

The only rub is that I will be moving far, far away in several months and would not be able to continue any lawsuit that would likely result.

Lucky for me and my urge to right a wrong, my sister is equally disgusted by the action to post religious documents, and we've worked out a possible plan of legal action: The commission refused the Pillars on the basis of it's lack of historical significance in the US. Very well, says I, if they wish a document of historical significance, we shall supply them with one. Or rather two.

The Treaty of Tripoli as well as Jefferson's Letter to the Danburry Baptists fit their requirements quite well. When they are rejected, as the commission so obviously has an agenda of its own, the ensuing circus will most definitely be amusing.

She will have little luck bringing the Commandments down, but putting up those two letters beside it is a worthy goal.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: m.e.h. ]

03-30-2002, 08:48 AM	#3
cartman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: USA Posts: 175	Yeah, there's been an epidemic of 10C nonsense in Tennessee, lately. At last count, 82 out of 95 counties had adopted similar resolutions regarding posting the 10C's as a "historic" document. There's a busybody going around convincing county commissioners that U.S. law is based on the 10C's--a highly questionable conclusion, at best. (There are several stories on II's Newswire related to this.) I wrote my local paper suggesting (among other things) that if they insist on ignoring church/state separation and posting the 10C's, the Pillars of Islam as well as other religious documents must be included to avoid an establishment of [the Christian] religion. [Edited to add that even then it would constitute an establishment of religion, just not a particular one. Also, although the First Amendment addresses Congressional action, the Supreme Court has, in its rulings, applied the principle to any entity of government.] Predictably, it fell on deaf ears--or, I suppose, blinded eyes, in this case. One would think that they could find better ways to waste my money. Lawsuits are inevitable and the counties will, in all likelihood, lose their misguided challenge to the U.S. Constitution. [ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: cartman ]</p>

03-30-2002, 10:05 AM	#4
Ergo Sum New Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: PA, USA Posts: 3	In my town, there was recently a lawsuit presented challenging the legality of a 10 Commandments plaque in the county courthouse. I believe it wasn't the ACLU representing the plantiff, but another similar organization. Anyways, it has triggered a huge backlash amongst the Judeo-Christian community, which comprises about 95 percent of the population. Some are saying that posting the 10 Commandments is not a violation of church-state separation. Others are ignoring the legal issue and basically claiming that there would be chaos if the Commandments were not posted. I try to argue with the first group that posting things like, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me," and "Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath day," in a government building is the antithesis of church-state separation. I don't bother arguing with the second group. It's remarkable that in this day and age, in a supposedly progressive and socially liberal society, that a thing like the 10 Commandments being posted still happens. I suppose evangelism is not dead, particularly in the south. [ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Ergo Sum ]</p>

04-02-2002, 08:25 PM	#10
m.e.h. Guest Posts: n/a	I myself live in the before mentioned city of Cleveland, Tennessee, and just prior to the young woman who asked the county commission to post the Five Pillars,I was considering legal action myself. The only rub is that I will be moving far, far away in several months and would not be able to continue any lawsuit that would likely result. Lucky for me and my urge to right a wrong, my sister is equally disgusted by the action to post religious documents, and we've worked out a possible plan of legal action: The commission refused the Pillars on the basis of it's lack of historical significance in the US. Very well, says I, if they wish a document of historical significance, we shall supply them with one. Or rather two. The Treaty of Tripoli as well as Jefferson's Letter to the Danburry Baptists fit their requirements quite well. When they are rejected, as the commission so obviously has an agenda of its own, the ensuing circus will most definitely be amusing. She will have little luck bringing the Commandments down, but putting up those two letters beside it is a worthy goal. [ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: m.e.h. ]</p>

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03-30-2002, 08:41 AM	#2
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	I'm wary of these ecumenical tactics. By challenging 10C supporters to also support other religious tenets, they are able to reject them and say, "We're not talking about religion; this is history." The plain fact is that 99% of the United States (by history, not population) derives from a Christian heritage. You can't argue with that. You can argue that the motivation for erecting religious monuments on government property is nothing short of imposing religion. And part of the heritage of the USA also guarantees that the government shall be secular and that such impositions are impermissible.

04-02-2002, 06:03 AM	#7
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	Like they say, "the Majority rules." Not everyone in TN is a bible-thumpin', God-fearin' christian....but like the rest of the South, they ARE probably the majority.

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