Freethought & Rationalism Archive

notMichaelJackson · 07-16-2003, 09:18 AM

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Originally posted by Badfish
That is more like Calvinism or "election", fundamentalism is not limited to believing that people who haven't heard the gospels will go to hell, logic dictates that a just God would find a way to reveal the gospel to those who haven't heard, or at the resurrection will be judged according to their hearts and conscience, as it is written that Gods law is written on the hearts of men, I believe everyone gets a fair shot, I don't know how, but they do. IMO.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part

God has a number of tricks up His sleeve that we do not know about apparently,

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

So I think the real answer to this question is that there are more possibilities. Or the answer is another question, namely, �Where is your faith?

Do you not trust God with His own creatures?� In human courts, people are sometimes condemned or set free on a technicality, but are we really so daft to think such a thing is possible with God?

It is true that there is only one Name under heaven by which we can be saved, and that is Jesus Christ.

However, that salvation is not based on our discernment of who is a Christian, but on Jesus� discernment of who belongs to Him. This not a call to disobey Jesus� commandment to preach the gospel, it is a consolation that equips us to persevere when our efforts seem to fail.

When we meet our Lord, whether we go to Him in death or He comes to us upon the clouds, when the perfect comes and all the secrets are shouted from the rooftops, we will spend a lot of time in glory, slapping our foreheads and rejoicing, �Oh, so that�s it! I get it now! Oh, I see! How could I have missed that one! Oh, so that�s how it all worked out!�

Until then, we have our faith to sustain us and Jesus� commandments to keep us busy. Idle speculation saves no souls and perfects no one�s obedience.

If you want to really study the topic and not really consider it a contest, then I don't see any problem, obviously this is a topic that bothers Christians and atheists alike, and the fact is, is that we do not know for sure, for anyone to say with absolute assurity would be stretching Gods word and the gospel.

Of course there is the big issue that clearly tells us to evangelize and spread the gospel, so basically this isn't as easy as it would appear, because like I said the lack of supporting scripture that goes either way.

I think what we can derive from scripture that whatever Gods plan is, it is just and 100% fair, God wouldn't have it any other way.

God has the right to judge the world because he has given adequate proof of his existence,

Rom. 1:18-20
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

As you can see from the scripture above, if a person, anywhere in the world wants to know more about the Creator of the Universe, God himself will see to it that that person has the opportunity to hear the gospel message from one of his servants, or through some other means. It is not our job to question Him, it is our job to sow the seed of the Word of God around the world to insure that all have the opportunity to hear, and for those that don't get a chance to hear. (Do we know for certain all the people who have not heard the gospel do not have a deathbed revelation because they have known in their hearts that there must be a creator?)

There is also the issue of about the case of those who hear the gospel and then for reasons of their own decide to say no to Christ.

As far as hell, I have no reason to reject scripture and considering Christ talked more about the dangers of hell as recorded in the bible (yes, it's true), I have no reason to believe that hell is not fire and brimstone, and utter anguish.

Badfish,

How can God reveal himself to small children so they can be saved?

Diadectes · 07-17-2003, 05:00 AM

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As far as hell, I have no reason to reject scripture and considering Christ talked more about the dangers of hell as recorded in the bible (yes, it's true), I have no reason to believe that hell is not fire and brimstone, and utter anguish.

I'm kind of in agreement with Philip K Dick on this one. What makes humans unique? Our ability to empathise . Human = Kindness. Those who willingly ignore this human capacity are, in effect, reneging on their humanity. Those who do not have it (if they truly exist) are little better than robots (hence the use of androids in many of his tales as a symbol of defective humanity). The existence of the kind of hell described above (or any kind of hell, for that matter) can therefore only be the work of an entity that is so far removed from humanity that there is virtually no common ground between it and us. Belief in this kind of entity is extremely dangerous, because it leads to, among other things, the worst kind of fundamentalism, where kindness and compassion are the last things on the beliver's mind. Ethically, morally, spiritually, we are light years beyond this entity, but have yet to realise it - (human history is riddled with the evidence that we still have a long way to go).

Guess this doesn't have much to do with the question, but since I missed out on all the Hell threads, I thought I'd slip in some thoughts here.

Milton · 07-17-2003, 05:51 AM

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I'm kind of in agreement with Philip K Dick on this one. What makes humans unique? Our ability to empathise . Human = Kindness.

Are you saying that humans are kind at times? or are you saying that humans are always kind? I know humans are selfish, most of the time. And whenever humans act kindly, they are most likely doing it out of personal interest.

Of course, there are those few who are kind, most of the time, and are not always doing it out of personal interest. But these are few.

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The existence of the kind of hell described above (or any kind of hell, for that matter) can therefore only be the work of an entity that is so far removed from humanity that there is virtually no common ground between it and us.

Says who?

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Belief in this kind of entity is extremely dangerous, because it leads to, among other things, the worst kind of fundamentalism, where kindness and compassion are the last things on the beliver's mind.

Really? So far, there are millions of Christians throughout the world, of which most believe that there is such hell, yet show exteme compassion and love for those who don't believe like them.

Quote:

Ethically, morally, spiritually, we are light years beyond this entity, but have yet to realise it - (human history is riddled with the evidence that we still have a long way to go).

Yea, that is why we have always been at war with eachother--massacred, almost annihialated races and the a whole lot more. You think Hitler and all those who did his work were humans? You think those who fought on the opposite side of Hitler were humans? According to you, kindness will override justice. So, in that case, if you claim that the Allies were on the side of justice, they were still wrong.

How far, again, did you say we were from that entity?

Quote:

Guess this doesn't have much to do with the question, but since I missed out on all the Hell threads, I thought I'd slip in some thoughts here.

I too did miss out on those talks. Where are they?

Diadectes · 07-17-2003, 06:46 AM

Apologies - I should have pointed out that although I agree with Dick's notion that what makes humans special is our ability to empathise, to imagine ourselves in the position of the suffering other, thus leading to acts of genuine kindness (yes, I do believe that altruism exists at a fundamnetal level in human beings, fluffy bunny that I am), and that those who choose to ignore this ability (for instance, those who willingly involved themselves in the atrocities of Nazi Germany) are reneging on their humanity, I find the rest of his Gnostic flavoured metaphysics merely interesting. I don't actually believe in God, (except, to some extent, in the sense that Spinoza talked of God) divine justice or heaven and hell. It's a fiction, and great fodder for SF writers like Dick, though of course he came to believe an awful lot of it after years of copious drug taking.

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07-17-2003, 06:46 AM	#4
Diadectes Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: England Posts: 211	Apologies - I should have pointed out that although I agree with Dick's notion that what makes humans special is our ability to empathise, to imagine ourselves in the position of the suffering other, thus leading to acts of genuine kindness (yes, I do believe that altruism exists at a fundamnetal level in human beings, fluffy bunny that I am), and that those who choose to ignore this ability (for instance, those who willingly involved themselves in the atrocities of Nazi Germany) are reneging on their humanity, I find the rest of his Gnostic flavoured metaphysics merely interesting. I don't actually believe in God, (except, to some extent, in the sense that Spinoza talked of God) divine justice or heaven and hell. It's a fiction, and great fodder for SF writers like Dick, though of course he came to believe an awful lot of it after years of copious drug taking.

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