Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 04-09-2003, 06:40 PM

Darth, you are still looking to find a God which is separate from the universe.

In a very real sense, Thou art That. When I analyze that statement from an atheistic viewpoint, I see that I- this material body, and this mind which is woven on the loom of my brain- am a natural part/extension/outgrowth of the entire universe; no different matter from the trees and the stars.

If I want to look at it from a pantheistic viewpoint, I can say that my own consciousness *is* the consciousness of God- and so is every other consciousness, from the dim perceptions of plants and bacteria to the most elevated musings of philosophers. The everyday mind is, in truth, the Buddha mind.

Those two are the same- different faces of the same coin.

What you can *not* find when one looks at the universe is a God who is apart from it; the Jewish-Christian-Islamic Creator, whose nature is entirely spiritual and not physical. We can perceive (with our conscious awareness) the physical universe around us, but we can never perceive anything spiritual; Occam's Razor lets us cut away the notion of a spirit-God as unnecessary. We remove the supernatural; but looked at closely, nature itself is God- and therefore, so are we, if the word God is to have any meaning at all.

I know I use that gif too much, but damn, it's just so *useful*!

Nostalgic Pushhead · 04-09-2003, 07:27 PM

Reminds me of Donnie Darko

Fear |----------------------------------| Love

BioBeing · 04-09-2003, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane

I dunnno

Hmmm - that seems to sum up your posts really, doesn't it?

Quote:

BioBeing quote:

I did not see God taking a day off work to comfort him too, although my children do go to Church.
No, but who do you look like in the eyes of the child? Are you not the good parent(God) to your child? Do you not follow the same command as God(if there is one) does? Loving your children?

One can have morals without God. I do what I do because it is the correct thing to do. Call it an evolved behaviour if you like - making sure my offspring reach puberty so they can reproduce themselves.

[quote]The child is God's tool. Lets

Quote:

examine that in light of an ever loving God, shall we? God is happy to test ME through an infant? To cause pain and suffering in an innocent child. So that I can choose love. Sounds as logical as giving me sin for what Adam and Eve did. And what of the child. Can an infant CHOOSE God? How does a 1 week/1day/1hour old baby know God, and which to choose? [And, if it cannot, and we are all born with original sin, them presumably when the baby dies it will go to hell. All to test me.] Why can I not just chose love (to soothe my sick child; to be the best that I can be) and it not require a God?

Quote:

Jesus said that we should be like chidlren if we wish to see heaven. What can we deduce from this?
If what heaven is like is as a child, then maybe God is a child? A child doesn't know it is doing wrong, unless it parents tells it what is left and what is right. Maybe we need to Love God(if there is one) as we would Love a child. With forgiveness for their silly notions, try to guide them as best you can, without hurting their ego, especially when teh child comes in the "Mine!" age.

So God is a child throwing tantrums.

And, as a parent, I am consistent with my correcting my children's behaviour. I let them know the consequences, and they get punished if they do wrong. In a way that makes it clear at the time. I do not tell my kids, on the day after their birthday, that they will not get presents next year if they are naughty. It doesn't work that way.

Quote:

Maybe?

That word again. So are you agnostic?

Quote:

If this is a test for the parents, then why are some prayers answered, and others not?

Those who die, maybe they have asked God that he take them Back. How can we know, how God(if there is one) communicates with children?

Can you prove to me a definite correlation one way or the other as to whether prayer works?

I dunno yet, but I will try my best to find out. All I can say is that God has answered some, yet let others slide.

Or is this loving God deaf? Or does it merely work in miraculous ways - ways which could be construed as being sadistic more than loving.

But chosing people at random to cause suffering to in the name of testing our love seems, well, kind of extreme.

So, bottom line, all the pain and hurt and suffering in the world is a test created by the God of love? He created all the viruses and diseases to test us all? Is he up there saying �This hurts me more than it hurts you�? Or is it really just nature taking her course?

:notworthy This is material for a stand-up joke or some. I laugh in Good heart.

No - not comedy, unless it is the divine comedy.

Quote:

Maybe it is like this.

We are on one side of the fence, God on the other.
We scream to God, and say why is it like this, why is the world in pain?
God looks at you and says: Look at what you have done to my creation, everything measured just like it should be. You come along and cause havoc. You may sit in your own filth. On the other hand, if you keep my highest commandment, to Love your neighbor as you Love thyself or your children, then we can talk business. If you wanna trade with me in my house(earth) it will be on my terms. My house my rules. If you wanna frolick around causing disharmony through killing, or polluting, or disrespecting your Mother Nature, then so be it, your Mother is staut but she can only withstand so much suffering.
If you treat me without Love, I will treat you without Love. An eye for an eye. tooth for tooth. I sent you my son, yet you wouldn't listen, he showed you they way to be. Acting through Love at every turn, with the mind of a child.

But ask in Love and you shall be given.

I dunno, is it like this?

Love

Maybe we just scream and no-one hears. As pointed out by Jobar - the effect is the same. So why invoke God. Just be good, love, and get on with your life.

7thangel · 04-09-2003, 09:08 PM

Hi DD,

Basically, what you are sayiing is that you want your standard to be God's standard.

Here is something that may interest you:

Is there a Free Will?

Majority of atheists, I believe, do not believe in free will. So do I. And the implication of such belief of no free will is that we cannot really choose our future. I believe, our will is fixed in our nature. As a man, I cannot will to sleep with another man; unless of course I am gay. Our will is in our physical and mental make. And with regards to mental make, we decieve ourselves as if we can really add an ounce to our intellectual capacity. How I wished I can!

My knowledge about the non-existence of free will, had fully convinced me that God's foolishness is wiser than men. Because of a truth, the preaching of the cross, being born again, and of Paul's doctrine of predestination is conviction of man's lack of free will. The Bible have been revealing it even before we come to know it.

Given that man has no free will, is there options for us to change? Actually, none. Everyone is just being as they are. And even if we have same knowledge, we could end up one seeing a glass half empty, while the other seeing the glass half full. I say there is enough evidence, yet atheists just don't want to accept it.

Now, maybe God is both good and evil. Anyways, He said, " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Again, it support of man's lack of free will.) And if you also believe that man has no free will, didn't you think that what you are doing is just part of God creating you to be against Him? Or you are not really contributing to what is being predestined.

I mentioned to you free will because if you can really convince all atheists that there is a free will, then I might consider becoming an atheist myself. And if you agree that there is no free will, give a lot more of unbiased thought and you will justify of God's action. Even by just focusing the implication of man having no free will.

Darth Dane · 04-10-2003, 01:23 AM

Hi DD,

Basically, what you are sayiing is that you want your standard to be God's standard.

No, I am saying, if there is a God, and God has spoken to jews christians and hindu's then all what is written in the various holy texts must be true, I don't know if they are true, but teh logic must be there. That means that whatever I want as a standard, God will grant me. God has a the same time said what standard God wants. If God and I are to live harmoniously we must choose the same standard. Since God Loves me, He will grant me whatever standard I will, even if it contradicts God's own. The freewill he gave me, is supreme, I have to choose to follow God or myself.

Is there a Free Will?

My knowledge about the non-existence of free will, had fully convinced me that God's foolishness is wiser than men. Because of a truth, the preaching of the cross, being born again, and of Paul's doctrine of predestination is conviction of man's lack of free will. The Bible have been revealing it even before we come to know it.

If this is true, then God(if there is one) must somehow know hat is happening. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" How can any of us know?

Given that man has no free will, is there options for us to change? Actually, none. Everyone is just being as they are. And even if we have same knowledge, we could end up one seeing a glass half empty, while the other seeing the glass half full. I say there is enough evidence, yet atheists just don't want to accept it.

It reminds of Ramana Maharishi. He was an enlightened being, or so some have credited him, I dunno I never met him. His "highest" teachings was this: Be as you are.
Maybe because you cannot change. If we don't have freewill, we can't change. Can you change? Can you be a better runnner, and get a better stamina? Do you choose this? I am unable to see if it is freewill, or programming.

And if you also believe that man has no free will, didn't you think that what you are doing is just part of God creating you to be against Him? Or you are not really contributing to what is being predestined.

Maybe we are created to rebel against God. I cannot contribute with anything out of predestiantion, because how can I? What ever I wish to do, is predestined, so just be as you are.
I do believe we have freewill, in a strange way.

Hmmm - that seems to sum up your posts really, doesn't it?

Yes, how can I know if my idea is correct?
The Zen master said: This night I dreamt(past tense) I was a butterfly, now I wonder if I am a zen master that dreamt(past tense) he was a butterfly, or if I am a butterfly that dreams(present tense) he is a zen master.

How can I see the difference? I can only choose to believe that I am real, and act from that.

One can have morals without God. I do what I do because it is the correct thing to do. Call it an evolved behaviour if you like - making sure my offspring reach puberty so they can reproduce themselves.

Of course you can have morals without God, I a m sure most atheist have morals.

So God is a child throwing tantrums.

Maybe, it could explain some things eh?

And, as a parent, I am consistent with my correcting my children's behaviour. I let them know the consequences, and they get punished if they do wrong. In a way that makes it clear at the time. I do not tell my kids, on the day after their birthday, that they will not get presents next year if they are naughty. It doesn't work that way.

The consequences of pollutting the nature, has been shown to us. We don't need armageddon to tell us that. Humanity gets punished if we do wrong. But even if we discard God(nature) and teh teaching, he will still Love us, as per promise by Jesus. All we need is to ask forgiveness, just like your child is doing. If you don't ask, how can God then give it to you. God does not wish to impose on your choice.

No - not comedy, unless it is the divine comedy.

Ever read: Job: a comedy of Justice? It's by R.A. Heinlein, maybe it is divine comedy.

Maybe we just scream and no-one hears. As pointed out by Jobar - the effect is the same. So why invoke God. Just be good, love, and get on with your life.

Yes, that is what Jesus said. "Love thy neighbor as you Love yourself" This command was as high as Loving your God.
Don't think about it, just Love.

Jobar Darth, you are still looking to find a God which is separate from the universe.

How so? How do you know that this is the case? Which evidence do you have that supports that conclusion?

In a very real sense, Thou art That. When I analyze that statement from an atheistic viewpoint, I see that I- this material body, and this mind which is woven on the loom of my brain- am a natural part/extension/outgrowth of the entire universe; no different matter from the trees and the stars.

If I want to look at it from a pantheistic viewpoint, I can say that my own consciousness *is* the consciousness of God- and so is every other consciousness, from the dim perceptions of plants and bacteria to the most elevated musings of philosophers. The everyday mind is, in truth, the Buddha mind.

Yes, depending on our belief system, we will see reality in a certain way.

Those two are the same- different faces of the same coin.

Sounds about right.

What you can *not* find when one looks at the universe is a God who is apart from it; the Jewish-Christian-Islamic Creator, whose nature is entirely spiritual and not physical. We can perceive (with our conscious awareness) the physical universe around us, but we can never perceive anything spiritual; Occam's Razor lets us cut away the notion of a spirit-God as unnecessary. We remove the supernatural; but looked at closely, nature itself is God- and therefore, so are we, if the word God is to have any meaning at all.

"In the beginning there was the word, and the word was God" If what you say is true, then it figures, that God created everything, then disappeared, and Gave us the word. Gods divine creation lies in teh word. OUr word is not as powerfull as God's, unless you can achieve what Jesus did.

My cats usually say "meow" and sometimes "mao" because they are learning to speak Mandarin. Once in a while one will say "MEEOOOOWWWWWWW" becasue I am ignoring that one. Or they will hiss at each other. But never have I heard them say anything else.

Cats dosesn't speak the same language we do. But God does. God speaks every language. The conversation above, was a potential, translation from those languages into something we understand.

Calzaer If all God does is say "Well, better get to work", isn't that exactly the same result as if there were no God at all?

Yes, would you act differently if you knew that there either, was a God, or wasn't a God?

If someone prooved that God was not. I would still want to choose Love, I would still try to be a good man, and kind to my neighbors. Nothing will change, we still need to produce food so we can live, knowing if God exists wouldn't really change that would it?

That word again. So are you agnostic?

I dunno. It goes like this. I have had my experiences, that tells me that the concept of "God" is real.
However I don't know if this experience is indeed a relgious experience. It matches to religious descriptions. I have no way of verifying them. I can tell you my experience, but you would rely solely on my word. I cannot at first sight, transfer my experience to you. It would be teh same if you were to explain what an orange tasted like. I need to bite into one myself to know absolutely what I think teh orange tastes like.
So to me, I know, but when I want to transfer my knowledge, I see that the words themselves cannot carry my experience.
So to you I cannot say that this is the truth, my words are the truth, how will you believe me, when you don't have my experience. So I can't say if my experience is real, ala the zen master dream, because noone can verify it for me.

Love

Darth Dane · 04-10-2003, 01:36 AM

just wanna add this:

Psalms 82:6 �I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High�.

John 10:34, �Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?�

What are we to deduce from this?

Love

emotional · 04-10-2003, 02:00 AM

Quote:

"Those who attend here regularly and who have listened for many years know that this is a theme on which I harp constantly. It is the theme of the constancy of the natural law. I know nothing of a jealous, vengeful deity, a capricious or partisan God. I have seen the operation of natural laws in every aspect of universal life, not only in your world of matter, but in the world of spirit which is my natural habitat, and wherever I have gone I find that natural law rules.

"There is no chance, no caprice, no miracle, no accident. All is due to cause and effect which follow one another in a sequence that is methodically exact and inviolable. Natural law rules throughout the whole universe and all that takes place, no matter where you look, whether it be in the realm of insect life, in human life, or in planetary life, always you will see that law is in operation.

"These laws take no cognisance of human desire or will. Your ideas, your views, your wishes will not change the natural law. The law has always been in operation: it is in operation now, it will continue to operate, for time is eternal and law is eternal, too. I know nothing of miracles. I do know that the power of the spirit, working according to natural law, though it may be a law not yet revealed or understood by those on earth, is capable of working seeming miracles."

-- Silver Birch

Darth Dane · 04-10-2003, 02:03 AM

"Miracles are not in contradiction with nature, they are in contradiction to what we know of nature"

"Love, and do what you like"

St. Augustine

"ask and you shall be given"

"The kingdom of heaven is spread upon earth but people do not see it."

Jesus

Love

emotional · 04-10-2003, 02:18 AM

Darth Dane, I have no problem with this gospel of Love. I think as much as you do that it is valuable. But what dumbfounds me, what draws me towards atheism all the time, is the Mystery of Suffering. Babies born with defects, calves born without brains, animals shown to be killers by their very design -- how is all that consistent with a God of Love? Does He keep Love all to himself, and deprive the created world of it? If this world is the manifestation of God's Love, then why the hell does it exhibit the appearance of blind, pitiless indifference?

Darth Dane · 04-10-2003, 02:29 AM

Darth Dane, I have no problem with this gospel of Love. I think as much as you do that it is valuable. But what dumbfounds me, what draws me towards atheism all the time, is the Mystery of Suffering. Babies born with defects, calves born without brains, animals shown to be killers by their very design -- how is all that consistent with a God of Love? Does He keep Love all to himself, and deprive the created world of it? If this world is the manifestation of God's Love, then why the hell does it exhibit the appearance of blind, pitiless indifference?

I dunno, maybe because humans as a whole exhibit blind pitiless indifference to the world. Then God as a whole is/does the same.

"ask and you shall be given"

If you want a better world we need to ask. But asking also takes on the form perhaps of doing work on our own.
If you don't wanna work for Love, how can God pay you with it. If you work for hate, your payment will be hate.
You must give Love to receive Love, also in your actions every day. Maybe if humanity as a whole, starts to heal the earth, then God will not do as God does.
Maybe God reflects the state of mind that the planet holds as a whole, God is beyond reproach, yet we claim God is the undoing of our happiness. Will you be happy if teh world is at peace, will you be happy if no more killings occur, will you be happy if all got along? If yes, then you must exhibit that behaviour. If no, then we have teh world as it is.

Maybe? I say lets work for it, lets take a chance that We can make a difference, a better world. But we need to start with ourselves. Don't expect others to do it, show, by your example, what you want. If you don't wanna turn your cheek at every turn, then others will hod teh same standard as you do. Because why should they try harder than you?

Love

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-09-2003, 06:40 PM	#21
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Darth, you are still looking to find a God which is separate from the universe. In a very real sense, Thou art That. When I analyze that statement from an atheistic viewpoint, I see that I- this material body, and this mind which is woven on the loom of my brain- am a natural part/extension/outgrowth of the entire universe; no different matter from the trees and the stars. If I want to look at it from a pantheistic viewpoint, I can say that my own consciousness is the consciousness of God- and so is every other consciousness, from the dim perceptions of plants and bacteria to the most elevated musings of philosophers. The everyday mind is, in truth, the Buddha mind. Those two are the same- different faces of the same coin. What you can not find when one looks at the universe is a God who is apart from it; the Jewish-Christian-Islamic Creator, whose nature is entirely spiritual and not physical. We can perceive (with our conscious awareness) the physical universe around us, but we can never perceive anything spiritual; Occam's Razor lets us cut away the notion of a spirit-God as unnecessary. We remove the supernatural; but looked at closely, nature itself is God- and therefore, so are we, if the word God is to have any meaning at all. I know I use that gif too much, but damn, it's just so useful!

04-09-2003, 07:27 PM	#22
Nostalgic Pushhead Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: So. Burlington, Vermont Posts: 4,315	Reminds me of Donnie Darko Fear \|----------------------------------\| Love

04-09-2003, 09:08 PM	#24
7thangel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Queens Village, NY Posts: 613	Hi DD, Basically, what you are sayiing is that you want your standard to be God's standard. Here is something that may interest you: Is there a Free Will? Majority of atheists, I believe, do not believe in free will. So do I. And the implication of such belief of no free will is that we cannot really choose our future. I believe, our will is fixed in our nature. As a man, I cannot will to sleep with another man; unless of course I am gay. Our will is in our physical and mental make. And with regards to mental make, we decieve ourselves as if we can really add an ounce to our intellectual capacity. How I wished I can! My knowledge about the non-existence of free will, had fully convinced me that God's foolishness is wiser than men. Because of a truth, the preaching of the cross, being born again, and of Paul's doctrine of predestination is conviction of man's lack of free will. The Bible have been revealing it even before we come to know it. Given that man has no free will, is there options for us to change? Actually, none. Everyone is just being as they are. And even if we have same knowledge, we could end up one seeing a glass half empty, while the other seeing the glass half full. I say there is enough evidence, yet atheists just don't want to accept it. Now, maybe God is both good and evil. Anyways, He said, " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Again, it support of man's lack of free will.) And if you also believe that man has no free will, didn't you think that what you are doing is just part of God creating you to be against Him? Or you are not really contributing to what is being predestined. I mentioned to you free will because if you can really convince all atheists that there is a free will, then I might consider becoming an atheist myself. And if you agree that there is no free will, give a lot more of unbiased thought and you will justify of God's action. Even by just focusing the implication of man having no free will.

04-10-2003, 01:23 AM	#25
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Hi DD, Basically, what you are sayiing is that you want your standard to be God's standard. No, I am saying, if there is a God, and God has spoken to jews christians and hindu's then all what is written in the various holy texts must be true, I don't know if they are true, but teh logic must be there. That means that whatever I want as a standard, God will grant me. God has a the same time said what standard God wants. If God and I are to live harmoniously we must choose the same standard. Since God Loves me, He will grant me whatever standard I will, even if it contradicts God's own. The freewill he gave me, is supreme, I have to choose to follow God or myself. Is there a Free Will? My knowledge about the non-existence of free will, had fully convinced me that God's foolishness is wiser than men. Because of a truth, the preaching of the cross, being born again, and of Paul's doctrine of predestination is conviction of man's lack of free will. The Bible have been revealing it even before we come to know it. If this is true, then God(if there is one) must somehow know hat is happening. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" How can any of us know? Given that man has no free will, is there options for us to change? Actually, none. Everyone is just being as they are. And even if we have same knowledge, we could end up one seeing a glass half empty, while the other seeing the glass half full. I say there is enough evidence, yet atheists just don't want to accept it. It reminds of Ramana Maharishi. He was an enlightened being, or so some have credited him, I dunno I never met him. His "highest" teachings was this: Be as you are. Maybe because you cannot change. If we don't have freewill, we can't change. Can you change? Can you be a better runnner, and get a better stamina? Do you choose this? I am unable to see if it is freewill, or programming. And if you also believe that man has no free will, didn't you think that what you are doing is just part of God creating you to be against Him? Or you are not really contributing to what is being predestined. Maybe we are created to rebel against God. I cannot contribute with anything out of predestiantion, because how can I? What ever I wish to do, is predestined, so just be as you are. I do believe we have freewill, in a strange way. Hmmm - that seems to sum up your posts really, doesn't it? Yes, how can I know if my idea is correct? The Zen master said: This night I dreamt(past tense) I was a butterfly, now I wonder if I am a zen master that dreamt(past tense) he was a butterfly, or if I am a butterfly that dreams(present tense) he is a zen master. How can I see the difference? I can only choose to believe that I am real, and act from that. One can have morals without God. I do what I do because it is the correct thing to do. Call it an evolved behaviour if you like - making sure my offspring reach puberty so they can reproduce themselves. Of course you can have morals without God, I a m sure most atheist have morals. So God is a child throwing tantrums. Maybe, it could explain some things eh? And, as a parent, I am consistent with my correcting my children's behaviour. I let them know the consequences, and they get punished if they do wrong. In a way that makes it clear at the time. I do not tell my kids, on the day after their birthday, that they will not get presents next year if they are naughty. It doesn't work that way. The consequences of pollutting the nature, has been shown to us. We don't need armageddon to tell us that. Humanity gets punished if we do wrong. But even if we discard God(nature) and teh teaching, he will still Love us, as per promise by Jesus. All we need is to ask forgiveness, just like your child is doing. If you don't ask, how can God then give it to you. God does not wish to impose on your choice. No - not comedy, unless it is the divine comedy. Ever read: Job: a comedy of Justice? It's by R.A. Heinlein, maybe it is divine comedy. Maybe we just scream and no-one hears. As pointed out by Jobar - the effect is the same. So why invoke God. Just be good, love, and get on with your life. Yes, that is what Jesus said. "Love thy neighbor as you Love yourself" This command was as high as Loving your God. Don't think about it, just Love. Jobar Darth, you are still looking to find a God which is separate from the universe. How so? How do you know that this is the case? Which evidence do you have that supports that conclusion? In a very real sense, Thou art That. When I analyze that statement from an atheistic viewpoint, I see that I- this material body, and this mind which is woven on the loom of my brain- am a natural part/extension/outgrowth of the entire universe; no different matter from the trees and the stars. If I want to look at it from a pantheistic viewpoint, I can say that my own consciousness is the consciousness of God- and so is every other consciousness, from the dim perceptions of plants and bacteria to the most elevated musings of philosophers. The everyday mind is, in truth, the Buddha mind. Yes, depending on our belief system, we will see reality in a certain way. Those two are the same- different faces of the same coin. Sounds about right. What you can not find when one looks at the universe is a God who is apart from it; the Jewish-Christian-Islamic Creator, whose nature is entirely spiritual and not physical. We can perceive (with our conscious awareness) the physical universe around us, but we can never perceive anything spiritual; Occam's Razor lets us cut away the notion of a spirit-God as unnecessary. We remove the supernatural; but looked at closely, nature itself is God- and therefore, so are we, if the word God is to have any meaning at all. "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was God" If what you say is true, then it figures, that God created everything, then disappeared, and Gave us the word. Gods divine creation lies in teh word. OUr word is not as powerfull as God's, unless you can achieve what Jesus did. My cats usually say "meow" and sometimes "mao" because they are learning to speak Mandarin. Once in a while one will say "MEEOOOOWWWWWWW" becasue I am ignoring that one. Or they will hiss at each other. But never have I heard them say anything else. Cats dosesn't speak the same language we do. But God does. God speaks every language. The conversation above, was a potential, translation from those languages into something we understand. Calzaer If all God does is say "Well, better get to work", isn't that exactly the same result as if there were no God at all? Yes, would you act differently if you knew that there either, was a God, or wasn't a God? If someone prooved that God was not. I would still want to choose Love, I would still try to be a good man, and kind to my neighbors. Nothing will change, we still need to produce food so we can live, knowing if God exists wouldn't really change that would it? That word again. So are you agnostic? I dunno. It goes like this. I have had my experiences, that tells me that the concept of "God" is real. However I don't know if this experience is indeed a relgious experience. It matches to religious descriptions. I have no way of verifying them. I can tell you my experience, but you would rely solely on my word. I cannot at first sight, transfer my experience to you. It would be teh same if you were to explain what an orange tasted like. I need to bite into one myself to know absolutely what I think teh orange tastes like. So to me, I know, but when I want to transfer my knowledge, I see that the words themselves cannot carry my experience. So to you I cannot say that this is the truth, my words are the truth, how will you believe me, when you don't have my experience. So I can't say if my experience is real, ala the zen master dream, because noone can verify it for me. Love

04-10-2003, 01:36 AM	#26
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	just wanna add this: Psalms 82:6 �I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High�. John 10:34, �Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?� What are we to deduce from this? Love

04-10-2003, 02:03 AM	#28
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	"Miracles are not in contradiction with nature, they are in contradiction to what we know of nature" "Love, and do what you like" St. Augustine "ask and you shall be given" "The kingdom of heaven is spread upon earth but people do not see it." Jesus Love

04-10-2003, 02:18 AM	#29
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Darth Dane, I have no problem with this gospel of Love. I think as much as you do that it is valuable. But what dumbfounds me, what draws me towards atheism all the time, is the Mystery of Suffering. Babies born with defects, calves born without brains, animals shown to be killers by their very design -- how is all that consistent with a God of Love? Does He keep Love all to himself, and deprive the created world of it? If this world is the manifestation of God's Love, then why the hell does it exhibit the appearance of blind, pitiless indifference?

04-10-2003, 02:29 AM	#30
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Darth Dane, I have no problem with this gospel of Love. I think as much as you do that it is valuable. But what dumbfounds me, what draws me towards atheism all the time, is the Mystery of Suffering. Babies born with defects, calves born without brains, animals shown to be killers by their very design -- how is all that consistent with a God of Love? Does He keep Love all to himself, and deprive the created world of it? If this world is the manifestation of God's Love, then why the hell does it exhibit the appearance of blind, pitiless indifference? I dunno, maybe because humans as a whole exhibit blind pitiless indifference to the world. Then God as a whole is/does the same. "ask and you shall be given" If you want a better world we need to ask. But asking also takes on the form perhaps of doing work on our own. If you don't wanna work for Love, how can God pay you with it. If you work for hate, your payment will be hate. You must give Love to receive Love, also in your actions every day. Maybe if humanity as a whole, starts to heal the earth, then God will not do as God does. Maybe God reflects the state of mind that the planet holds as a whole, God is beyond reproach, yet we claim God is the undoing of our happiness. Will you be happy if teh world is at peace, will you be happy if no more killings occur, will you be happy if all got along? If yes, then you must exhibit that behaviour. If no, then we have teh world as it is. Maybe? I say lets work for it, lets take a chance that We can make a difference, a better world. But we need to start with ourselves. Don't expect others to do it, show, by your example, what you want. If you don't wanna turn your cheek at every turn, then others will hod teh same standard as you do. Because why should they try harder than you? Love

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.