Noesis

I would invite him to discuss his findings on this forum, although I am certain that he would not. Once before he used arguments resting on "out of body" experiences to evince Cartesian dualism (or maybe he would only say parallelism), thus providing the connective tissue to some haughty non sequitur about the soul's existence.

It's very frustrating, and I don't think it helps my hypertension. I normally don't go through the trouble of refuting very often, unless I value the person. Painstaking argument and refutation is left unappreciated as the theist falls back on faith and the teleological argument (and sometimes the moral argument).


"Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason?..."

echidna

Drinking 8 coffees sends me into an abnormal brain state as well, but I fail to see the link to the supernatural. Ask them to define "supernatural" & how that link is proven.

Abnormal brain states exist, therefore levitation is real ? I trust your friend's argument is a little more developed than this.

Noesis

No, it's quite simplistic really:

Monks reach abnormal brain states while meditating.
Ergo, supernaturalism is true.

I've done a Google search, an Infidels search, and a cursory reading of The Skeptic's Dictionary, and cannot locate a refutation. Does anyone know where to look?

echidna

Search for what though ? Supernaturalism in itself is too broad to discuss without further definition & altered brain states are something I can achieve by not sleeping for too long, no one will deny they exist. I think you need to be a bit more specific as to his claims.

I mean there's just so many flaws one runs out of finger to plug them with. Why do a large proportion of Christians see supernaturalism as practised by Buddhists and Hindus as evil ? Why has no one ever been able to reproduce a supernatural event under real scrutiny ? Why is there no evidence whatsoever for any supenatural claims ? Why have scientists given up on wasting money on investigating such claims, despite the limitless commercial rewards if they could demonstrate the existence of the supernatural ? Why does the average overweight American atheist have a higher life expectancy than the average Tibetan Buddhist ? Why does conventional neurology cover the vast majority of supernatural claims such as NDE & out-of-body experience ?

Noesis

I've typed in words like "Buddhist monks brain waves meditation pseudoscience" and have gotten results but not a counterargument. Several of the results deal with a book called The Demon Haunted Brain, but I would rather find an online refutation rather than buy a book (tightfisted, you see).

echidna

Try here for starters ...

http://www.skepdic.com/altstates.html

But I'd urge you to check out Robert Carrol's site further, it's great. And from memory it was even one of his links which brought me here back in 2001.

Walross

Noesis, the onus is not on you to refute your friend's claims - rather, it's on them to back their claims up with some hard facts. Like the others here, I fail to see how "altered" brain states = proof of supernatural. I don't have much more to add at this point, but I am interested to see how your friend responds to the points that have been made here. Regards,

Walross

contracycle

Get a joint. Get stoned with your mate. Once you are down to roach, ask your buddy "so is this an altered brain state or what?" When you stop laughing, write down the answer (or you'll forget). Resume conversation next day; now you can point out that brain states can be imposed by entirely physical phenomenon and that no supernatural entity is required.

ps418

I spent several years meditating, and experienced many 'mystical' states. I was a supernaturalist at the time, but I never experienced anything that required a supernatural explanation.

That's not an argument. There has to be a clearly stated argument before there can be a counterargument. The missing premise is: "If monks reach altered states, supernaturalism is true." Maybe the premise is missing becasue someone knows it cant be defended?

Hehe. Or reptiles, or aliens. . .

Patrick

RevDahlia

Actually, the little-people-in-red-hats comment was Farren's, not mine. I was going to mention South American shamans drinking ayahuasca and paying formal calls on the Great Beyond, though -- ayahuasca contains DMT among other things. Still proof of jack squat. Yawn.