Noesis

A Christian friend of mine recently attempted to prove the existence of a supernatural realm by stating that monks achieve abnormal brain states while meditating.

Does anyone know where I can find refutations specifically dealing with these studies? He will not listen to my own arguments; he wants to see evidence.

Thanks so much.

Jobar

Welcome to Internet Infidels, Noesis.

I think your question will get better response in our Science & Skepticism forum, so I'm going to move it there. (I am aware of the study your friend is referring to; did he say that they were *Buddhist* monks?)

Noesis

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, he did mention Buddhist monks, although if refuted I am sure he would say that the study he read did not deal with Buddhist monks specifically. I wouldn't want to find studies just dealing with Buddhist monks because it would be too easy for him to call the refutation "irrelevant." Any help is appreciated though.

Mageth

A Christian friend of mine recently attempted to prove the existence of a supernatural realm by stating that monks achieve abnormal brain states while meditating.

Uh, so what? All that illustrates is the existence of "abnormal" brain states (fully within the "natural realm") and teh ability to reach them through meditation, and does nothing at all to establish the existence of a "supernatural realm".

IMO, that's the only refutation you need.

Noesis

Mageth,

Our thoughts are the same concerning this issue. I stated that "God exists" is equivalent to "The brains of monks are abnormal." That of course, didn't stop the preaching. He wanted to see an experimental refutation, and he kept saying "Maybe the study was done over again; it's a very recent study."

RevDahlia

How, exactly, are abnormal mental states supposed to be proof of a supernatural realm?

Noesis

I don't know. He is not an intelligent fellow when it comes to reasoning. It's that "doublethink" Xian schema that is at times impossible to penetrate.

I feel like I'm plugging holes in a dam with my fingers at times, but nontheless I'd like to have a refutation to give him concerning these studies and its alleged nexus to the supernatural.

As I recall, he stated that "Our brains are wired to understand the supernatural."

Farren

Perhaps you could point out to him that buddhism is atheistic? Or suggest that he picks up some of the ample literature by the Dalai Lama to see just how naturalistic and unsupernatural typical buddhist philosophy and practice is?

RevDahlia

Extraordinary claim there, one which requires (naturally) extraordinary evidence.

Altered mental states are common, and not just in monks. Hypnosis can lead to an abnormal mental state, and meditation can be a kind of self-hypnosis.

Some monks grooving out on the ol' alpha waves do not constitute extrordinary evidence. You shouldn't need to produce any studies to prove this, indeed I wonder exactly what kind of study your friend has in mind. One which says that no, meditating monks do not experience altered states? Puh-LEEZ.

It seems like your homie is experiencing an altered state himself, perhaps one induced by smoking crack.

Farren

Another thing he may be thinking of (although its not a physical difference of any particular kind of person), is that there's an area of the right frontal parietal lobe of the brain that produces euphoria and a sense of "presence" of another individual when electrically stimulated, which is invariably interpreted as "God" by people with religious beliefs.

The counter of course, is that there are areas of the brain that produce the illusion of little people in red hats when subjects are fed DMT.

If he's not aware of this, don't tell him. It'll just fuel his cognitive dissonance A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.