Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 06-16-2003, 12:46 PM

Could someone please point me to the Biblical passage that deals with Samson's riddle? In Thomas Harris' book Hannibal, Dr Lecter writes to Clarice that she is in "answer to Samson's riddle: you are the honey in the lion." Commentary follows - a mention of "tacit evocations" felt elsewhere and the like - and I would like to find the actual story before I draw literary conclusions.

(I recently moved and my Bible is buried in one of countless identical-looking boxes of books.)

Gurdur · 06-16-2003, 12:53 PM

King James Version

Judges 14

1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.
2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.
3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.
5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.
6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
7 And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.
8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.
9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.
10 So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.
11 And it came to pass, when they saw him, that they brought thirty companions to be with him.
12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:
13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.
14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.
15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?
16 And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?
17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.
18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.
19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.
20 But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.

Calzaer · 06-16-2003, 01:17 PM

.....

that makes absolutely no sense.

Bree · 06-16-2003, 01:36 PM

Thank you Gurdur, you're wonderful.

Calzaer is right - that makes absolutely no sense. I'm reading that Samson gets his strength from the honey in the lion - is that right? That's about the only literary correlation I can see between Hannibal and Samson - if the honey in the lion is a source of strength (in this case, Clarice Starling) then yes, that might make sense.

Gurdur · 06-16-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.
2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

Samson went choofing off around the place, and walked into a settlement of (semi-Phonecian) Philistines, and saw a good-looker.
'Course, this meant problems, because the Israelites and the Philistines were not on the best of terms (the Philistines being coastal invading settlers).

Quote:

3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

And Samson's mom and dad said, "Hey ! Can't you find a nice girl here at home, eh ?"
And Samson replied, "Fuck you. She's a good-looker and I want her bad".

Quote:

4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

But his mum and dad were unconvinced, because of a few small wars and that kind of thing. Plus of course different languages.
And who would look after the goats if Samson went chasing some foreign bit of skirt in the sin-laden city of the Philistines ?

Quote:

5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

So Samson marched away in a huff, really, really, really pissed off.
Luckily, a lion or cheetah or leopard (all were still around in that area at that time) decided to show itself just for him, just so Samson could get rid of a few frustrations.
And so he did.

Quote:

6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

He was really pissed off. Poor lion !
But since he was pissed off with his parents, he didn't tell them about the lion.

Quote:

7 And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.

So instead he went out gallivanting with a trollop. It was more fun.

Quote:

8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.

He walked eventually back, if somewhat exhausted, :wink:, and he found wild honey-bees had built a nest in the old carcasse, which means he was away for at least 3 weeks after knocking the poor lion off.

Quote:

9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.

So who's going to complain about some honey ?

BTW, from this we gather that beekeeping was not yet an art of the Israelites; they depended on wild bees rather than domesticating bees.

Quote:

10 So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.
11 And it came to pass, when they saw him, that they brought thirty companions to be with him.

Anyway, against his mum's advice (Mother Always Knows Best), his dad gave in, and choofed off to the Philistines with the bridal price (lots of goats) to get the foreign strumpet Samson was desperate for.
So Samson threw a party for his male pals, 30 of them.
Kinda a Bachelor Party. As ever, a bad idea.

Quote:

12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:

And Samson looked at his pals, and thought to himself,
"Hey ! I can fuck with their minds ! And maybe make a profit from it too !"

Quote:

13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.

And his pals looked at him.

Quote:

14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

So Samson, being a smartarse, said,

"I got something sweet out of a carnivore !
Beat that !
I got me some honey out of muscle, if ya know whad i mean, heh heh !
Now tell me what I mean !"
heh, heh, heh.

Quote:

15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

And his pals thought,
"Fuck this. We might lose some money over this bet.
Hey ! Let's go and threaten that new foreign wife of his, and get the answer that way.
'Course, we'ld really like to burn his house anyway."

Quote:

16 And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me.

And Samson's wife got worried.

Quote:

And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?

And Samson said,
"So what ?"

Quote:

17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

But she was really worried, so she nagged him until he finally gave away the secret he'ld made a riddle out of.

Quote:

18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

And Samson's wife told the pals, and they ran up to Samson, and said:
"Hey ! You're a dildo ! We know the answer to your riddle !
Take that, you prat !"

Quote:

19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

And Samson was really pissed off, so he went back to the Philistines and knocked 30 of them off, stole their clothes, and gave the clothes to his "pals" as payment for losing the bet.

Hard cheese all round for the Philistines, what ?

Quote:

20 But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.

But he was still really pissed off, so he gave his wife away to one of his "pals", because she had betrayed the secret to them, and when Samson got pissed off, it was often bad news all round.

Gurdur · 06-16-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree

.... In Thomas Harris' book Hannibal, Dr Lecter writes to Clarice that she is in "answer to Samson's riddle: you are the honey in the lion."

So Lecter was saying Clarice was not only strong, she was also sweet.

A good woman to have, IOW.

Bree · 06-16-2003, 02:03 PM

Thanks - you're a pal.

Pyrrho · 06-16-2003, 02:08 PM

Great interpretation, Gurdur!

Gurdur · 06-16-2003, 02:09 PM

Don't overlook the post just above yours --- I wasn't sure whic you wanted translated, Lecter or the Bible.
Now you got both.

Gurdur · 06-17-2003, 12:18 AM

First off, many thanks to DixieNurse, for reminding me to post this next bit, and to Pyrrho for his kind words.

Next bit:

hmmmm. I'm a wee bit ashamed of myself, because I missed out on something in that translation post; I only thought of it about half an hour after I had posted, and I keep meaning to go back and post again or something.

What I missed was the interesting sub-story there:
Samson was also upset because he thought one of his pals had slept with his wife.
Obviously his wife did not tell him that his pals had threatened to burn his house down and kill her; and Samson simply assumed she had told one of them the secret because she had slept with one of them, for which there is no indication.

Then, too, there is also the factor of the Israelite's inferiority complex regarding the Philistines; in comparison to the goat-herding Israelites, the Philistines were cultured city people.

There are some stunning parallels to Shakespeare's play Othello, where Othello believes the worst of his fianc� (without reason, and because a nasty courtier is deliberately poisoning his mind), and Othello has an inferiority complex regarding the people he governs, and the courtier has an inferiority complex regarding Othello.

06-16-2003, 12:46 PM	#1
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Samson's riddle? Could someone please point me to the Biblical passage that deals with Samson's riddle? In Thomas Harris' book Hannibal, Dr Lecter writes to Clarice that she is in "answer to Samson's riddle: you are the honey in the lion." Commentary follows - a mention of "tacit evocations" felt elsewhere and the like - and I would like to find the actual story before I draw literary conclusions. (I recently moved and my Bible is buried in one of countless identical-looking boxes of books.)

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06-16-2003, 12:53 PM	#2
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	King James Version Judges 14 1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. 3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. 4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. 5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him. 6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done. 7 And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well. 8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion. 9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion. 10 So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do. 11 And it came to pass, when they saw him, that they brought thirty companions to be with him. 12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments: 13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it. 14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle. 15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so? 16 And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee? 17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people. 18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. 19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house. 20 But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.

06-16-2003, 01:17 PM	#3
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	..... that makes absolutely no sense.

06-16-2003, 01:36 PM	#4
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Thank you Gurdur, you're wonderful. Calzaer is right - that makes absolutely no sense. I'm reading that Samson gets his strength from the honey in the lion - is that right? That's about the only literary correlation I can see between Hannibal and Samson - if the honey in the lion is a source of strength (in this case, Clarice Starling) then yes, that might make sense.

06-16-2003, 02:03 PM	#7
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Thanks - you're a pal.

06-16-2003, 02:08 PM	#8
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	Great interpretation, Gurdur!

06-16-2003, 02:09 PM	#9
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	Don't overlook the post just above yours --- I wasn't sure whic you wanted translated, Lecter or the Bible. Now you got both.

06-17-2003, 12:18 AM	#10
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	First off, many thanks to DixieNurse, for reminding me to post this next bit, and to Pyrrho for his kind words. Next bit: hmmmm. I'm a wee bit ashamed of myself, because I missed out on something in that translation post; I only thought of it about half an hour after I had posted, and I keep meaning to go back and post again or something. What I missed was the interesting sub-story there: Samson was also upset because he thought one of his pals had slept with his wife. Obviously his wife did not tell him that his pals had threatened to burn his house down and kill her; and Samson simply assumed she had told one of them the secret because she had slept with one of them, for which there is no indication. Then, too, there is also the factor of the Israelite's inferiority complex regarding the Philistines; in comparison to the goat-herding Israelites, the Philistines were cultured city people. There are some stunning parallels to Shakespeare's play Othello, where Othello believes the worst of his fianc� (without reason, and because a nasty courtier is deliberately poisoning his mind), and Othello has an inferiority complex regarding the people he governs, and the courtier has an inferiority complex regarding Othello.

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