Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wiploc · 01-24-2003, 09:28 PM

I'm wondering if miracles necessarily violate the laws of logic as well as the laws of physics. Take the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. There wasn't enough food to feed the multitude, and yet there was. Isn't that a violation of logic?

Someone gave me this answer: "There wasn't enough food at first, but then there was; so no logical contradiction was involved." I don't have a rebuttal for him. Does anybody else think miracles violate logic?
crc

Amie · 01-24-2003, 10:23 PM

Hi wiploc
logic shmogic...I believe in miracles!

in all seriousness I must say along with violating the laws of nature, a miracle does not appear to be logical. I was in another miracle thread a while back and I was saying that I believe in some of the miracles at Fatima and Lourdes however that does not mean I believe in all miracles. A while ago I was at a parish meeting at my church and some people were talking about a specific "miracle" however after hearing the story I just said "That does not really sound like a miracle to me, it sounds like adrenaline" I think the human body is capable of many things when fight or flight kicks in so I would not say having a tremendous amount of strength would necessarily have to be attributed to any God.

Can I please get some marshmallows to roast over the flames that may be coming my way

beyelzu · 01-24-2003, 10:54 PM

here are some marshmellows amie, cuz i care

but i am fresh out of flames

Wiploc,

I do not think that miracles violate the laws of logic precisely, they violate laws of nature. And will logic is an abstract. The laws of nature are concrete. So miracles violate something more basic than logic, reality.

long winded fool · 01-25-2003, 12:03 AM

If God can't violate logic, how could miracles? And even violating "the laws of physics" can be subjective. We can now do things that would have been miraculous in Jesus' day. Who can say whether "modern miracles" don't just correspond to actual physical laws in ways we simply aren't advanced enough to see?

Jayjay · 01-25-2003, 07:46 AM

"Miracles" can't violate logic, but descriptions of miracles certainly can...

Reality: Jesus shares bread with a couple of people, and it's enough for everyone.
Legend: Jesus shares bread with a few thousand people, and it's enough for everyone.

Vicar Philip · 01-25-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
[B]...logic shmogic...I believe in miracles!

in all seriousness I must say along with violating the laws of nature, a miracle does not appear to be logical. I was in another miracle thread a while back and I was saying that I believe in some of the miracles at Fatima and Lourdes however that does not mean I believe in all miracles. A while ago I was at a parish meeting at my church and some people were talking about a specific "miracle" however after hearing the story I just said "That does not really sound like a miracle to me, it sounds like adrenaline" I think the human body is capable of many things when fight or flight kicks in so I would not say having a tremendous amount of strength would necessarily have to be attributed to any God. ...

So why believe in ANY miracles? How can you have a perfectly rational explanation for one miracle, yet profess to accept other miracles? Why don't we see miracles today? Could it be science very handily explains away all the smoke and mirror shows put on by charlatans?

Why are miracles impossible to reproduce, or they never "quite" occur the same way? The attitude that certain miracles are true while others are false rubs me the same wrong way as stating certain passages in the bible are true while others are patently false. You don't know! I don't know either, but the difference is I don't care. I don't need magic tricks to make my life complete.

Please give us some compelling evidence to prove your accepted miracles really happened. First, what miracles are you talking about? Let's go from there.

Bree · 01-25-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
First, what miracles are you talking about? Let's go from there.

Lourdes

Fatima

Wiploc · 01-25-2003, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip

Please give us some compelling evidence to prove your accepted miracles really happened. First, what miracles are you talking about? Let's go from there.

I'm gonna call this "off topic." This thread is not for the discussion of whether miracles happen, but for whether they violate logic if they do happen.
crc

parkdalian · 01-25-2003, 09:27 AM

Since the mechanism of miracles is never explained (by definition), it's impossible to judge the logic of them. In the bread miracle, I suppose God could have beamed down new loaves as needed, and while no one was looking .

Mad Kally · 01-25-2003, 09:51 AM

Miracles?!? Why can't god take a decapitated head and reattach it to a body, then have the body jump up, smile and start talking about how god did it?

That would be sort of impressive, if it wasn't a magic trick or hallucination.

IMO there is no such thing as a miracle, now or in the past. It's fairy tales told by ancient goat herders people. I firmly believe this to be the Truth.

Logic? I think not! (Miracles Smiracles added for sullster)

I work with the terminally ill where people are constantly praying for a miracle. Guess what, whether they pray or not they all die. Christians don't die any prettier than atheists or agnostics. I've never heard one yell out "Here I am Jesus" or tell a loved one "See you in heaven honey"

01-24-2003, 09:28 PM	#1
Wiploc Contributor Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Alaska! Posts: 14,058	The logic of miracles I'm wondering if miracles necessarily violate the laws of logic as well as the laws of physics. Take the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. There wasn't enough food to feed the multitude, and yet there was. Isn't that a violation of logic? Someone gave me this answer: "There wasn't enough food at first, but then there was; so no logical contradiction was involved." I don't have a rebuttal for him. Does anybody else think miracles violate logic? crc

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01-24-2003, 10:23 PM	#2
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	Hi wiploc logic shmogic...I believe in miracles! in all seriousness I must say along with violating the laws of nature, a miracle does not appear to be logical. I was in another miracle thread a while back and I was saying that I believe in some of the miracles at Fatima and Lourdes however that does not mean I believe in all miracles. A while ago I was at a parish meeting at my church and some people were talking about a specific "miracle" however after hearing the story I just said "That does not really sound like a miracle to me, it sounds like adrenaline" I think the human body is capable of many things when fight or flight kicks in so I would not say having a tremendous amount of strength would necessarily have to be attributed to any God. Can I please get some marshmallows to roast over the flames that may be coming my way

01-24-2003, 10:54 PM	#3
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	here are some marshmellows amie, cuz i care but i am fresh out of flames Wiploc, I do not think that miracles violate the laws of logic precisely, they violate laws of nature. And will logic is an abstract. The laws of nature are concrete. So miracles violate something more basic than logic, reality.

01-25-2003, 12:03 AM	#4
long winded fool Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,113	If God can't violate logic, how could miracles? And even violating "the laws of physics" can be subjective. We can now do things that would have been miraculous in Jesus' day. Who can say whether "modern miracles" don't just correspond to actual physical laws in ways we simply aren't advanced enough to see?

01-25-2003, 07:46 AM	#5
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	"Miracles" can't violate logic, but descriptions of miracles certainly can... Reality: Jesus shares bread with a couple of people, and it's enough for everyone. Legend: Jesus shares bread with a few thousand people, and it's enough for everyone.

01-25-2003, 09:27 AM	#9
parkdalian Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nouveau-Brunswick Posts: 507	Since the mechanism of miracles is never explained (by definition), it's impossible to judge the logic of them. In the bread miracle, I suppose God could have beamed down new loaves as needed, and while no one was looking .

01-25-2003, 09:51 AM	#10
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Miracles?!? Why can't god take a decapitated head and reattach it to a body, then have the body jump up, smile and start talking about how god did it? That would be sort of impressive, if it wasn't a magic trick or hallucination. IMO there is no such thing as a miracle, now or in the past. It's fairy tales told by ancient goat herders people. I firmly believe this to be the Truth. Logic? I think not! (Miracles Smiracles added for sullster) I work with the terminally ill where people are constantly praying for a miracle. Guess what, whether they pray or not they all die. Christians don't die any prettier than atheists or agnostics. I've never heard one yell out "Here I am Jesus" or tell a loved one "See you in heaven honey"

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