Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 07-22-2003, 07:23 AM

(Sorry about my last post: I hadn't realised the argument had moved on from morality.)

Thank you, Whispers, for your detailed reply to my earlier post.
DMB answered your points as well as I could, but in total they exactly illustrate the substantial differences between us.

And crucially this: yes, I am happy not knowing the answers to every question.

I am confident that little by little we will discover more and more - and here�s the paradox which I think you will find unendurable: the more we know, the more aware we will become of how little we know and of how much more there is to find out.
I think the human mind is embarked on a wonderful quest for knowledge, and one which will never end. It will lead to good things and bad things, as it has done since the journey began. But the alternative is worse because nothing, to my mind, is worse than the poisoned fruits of ignorance and superstition.

Alan N · 07-22-2003, 07:31 AM

Whispers, I am right with you. I struggle now to gain a foothold at the edge of a precipace. This precipace is, for me, where the answers of science and the comfort of the material world end and the deep longings I experience begin. I am frustrated at my own inability to express in words what I long for. This is the essense of this precipace, this need for me. Perhaps God is right there...I don't know. I sure don't see Him, at least at this point. It doesn't mean I'm not looking for Him, just that I don't see him.

s5o8 · 07-22-2003, 07:32 AM

It might sound overly simplistic, but all your examples only illustrates that you can swap one addiction for another, like smoker quitting their smoking only to take up compulsive eating. Swapping a alcohol addiction for a �hope� addiction that�s all IMHO.

Whispers · 07-22-2003, 08:00 AM

It could be that people needed to focus on something and that it was purely the act of focussing that made the difference, I don�t know. This is the issue though, that I am hoping to explore. Whilst they are nebulous and to some not worthy of discussion, I value the average mans expressions, experiences and stories. Not everything real and meaningful can be proven or repeated in a lab. I sometimes think that becoming too caught up with always looking for proof, can actually stop us directly and insightfully coming to realisations....again, I say that trust and faith must also apply when seeking answers.

I say again that we must be able to communicate with each other in a space of trust and honesty. If we debate on this forum and I claim to have God in my life, am I automatically a liar, just because you don�t believe in God? Could I be telling the truth? Would you believe me if I say I am married? What about if I say that I am 30, and a vegetarian? What about if I tell you that I will not lie to you at all? Do I need to prove these things before you will accept them? Can we start at a position of trust and see how things go from there? I too must offer you the same courtesy and not automatically disagree with or disbelieve you, just because we don�t share the same point of view.

Do you trust your partner, your colleagues, the media? Do you trust the scientists and the latest new found cure or discovery? What about our political leaders? Do you directly see the evidence of the results from scientific tests? If not, you are not seeing proof, you are seeing someone claim that it is proven and that is a massive difference? Or is that you do actually trust the faceless scientists and all of their marvellous discoveries? Whioch is it? Do you live by trust, or by proof? Or both? I expect like most people, it is both, but to differing degrees. You may trust the statements of scientists, unproven as they are, and refuse to believe in the statements of the bible or koran as they are also unproven?

If you have a dad, is he really your biological father? If you say yes, how do you know FOR DEFINITE? Maybe you can find out, but how do you know right now? You don�t do you, its taken on faith and trust, like so many many things?

Constantly saying prove it, and then feeling smug when it cannot be proven seems to me to be a respone which only invovles the mind and not the heart. Truth is a matter for the intellect and the heart. It has thought, reflection, emotion and insightfullness buried in it.

Mageth · 07-22-2003, 08:19 AM

I say again that we must be able to communicate with each other in a space of trust and honesty. If we debate on this forum and I claim to have God in my life, am I automatically a liar, just because you don�t believe in God? Could I be telling the truth?

I think I can speak for most here in saying that we don't doubt that you indeed have God in your life. We don't think you're lying. The caveat is that we think the God you have in your life, like all gods, is a human concept invented a long time ago as an explanation for many of the questions you asked (e.g. "Why?") and not an extant being that provides Meaning to this otherwise Meaningless existence.

Mageth · 07-22-2003, 08:22 AM

Whispers, from the first page:

PROVE it to me......I dare you...

Whispers, from the second page:

Constantly saying prove it, and then feeling smug when it cannot be proven seems to me to be a respone which only invovles the mind and not the heart.

???

Stephen T-B · 07-22-2003, 08:25 AM

Dear Whispers - the sceptical mind (I spell it that way because I'm English) is something one either wants and wishes to sharpen, or is repelled by.
Personally, I have a horror of being taken in, tricked, made a fool of (and goodness knows, it has happened often enough.) I am not innately suspicious of people and their motives, but I want to train my mind so that it readily detects the impossible.
I don�t believe in magic. I don�t even want to believe in magic. If I see something which purports to be magic, I am immediately suspicious and begin to look for rational explanations.

The atheists you�ve met here simply do not share the requirement common to Believers to incorporate the Mysterious into their every-day lives.

Our needs are different.

Whispers · 07-22-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Whispers, from the first page:

PROVE it to me......I dare you...

Whispers, from the second page:

Constantly saying prove it, and then feeling smug when it cannot be proven seems to me to be a respone which only invovles the mind and not the heart.

???

Constantly?????

Anyway, I am human and guilty just like the rest of us of claiming a standard and then not living by it!!

well spotted though!

07-22-2003, 09:22 AM

Whispers:
If you say you have god in your life, I have no reason to suppose you are lying, any more than if someone suffering from delirium tremens claims to see purple elephants. It's all a matter of interpretation.

You seem touchingly keen to get us to consider the possibility of your god. All we need is faith or trust. But why faith in your particular god? Why not believe in Odin or Kali? What's so special about yours?

You post from the UK, so it's a fair bet that you have mainly been exposed to the xian god. I suspect I am a bit older than you, and growing up mainly in the UK I certainly had a lot of xianity thrust at me, being forced at school to learn chunks of the bible, etc.

So did you do any shopping around? Did you investigate buddhism or hinduism or perhaps the religion of the aztecs? From where I stand, they all look alike to me, and since they can't all be true, why should any of them? I really don't know whether any gods exist, but I call myself an atheist because I don't see any evidence that they do. If you want us to take up your call to have faith and trust in something for which we don't see convincing evidence, you'll have to focus on why we should pick just one.

thebeave · 07-22-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
It is probably my fault that you have misunderstood me =)

What I was trying to get to, is the hypotheitical situation where a stranger wants to kill my baby son. If there is no absoloute moral law, is there ANY reason that he shouldnt? Does it come down to what I think, you think, the majority thinks? What about what he thinks? What about if in the future, the majority think its okay to kill babies providing your tax rate is 10% higher. I know its a ridiculous idea, but if the majority said it was right, would it be right? How do we know when something is right morally speaking? What is it we listen to? The voices of our parents, forever dwelling in our psyche? Do we just guess? If we are just guessing, than there is no right and wrong, and everything is allowed.....EVERYTHING...

Well, Whispers, technically your God (I'm assuming you're a Christian or at least leaning that way) allows for strangers to kill your baby son, in case you weren't aware of it. And in fact, YOU are supposed to initiate the process of killing him if you are to be true to your faith. Might I suggest you read Deuternomy 21:18 in the Bible Old Testament to refresh your memory? To save you the trouble, I have provided it here for you. Of course, if your baby son is always good, happy, and always listens to you and obeys you, then you don't have anything to worry about. Maybe the Bible is the book that contains the moral code of how you want to raise your son, but as a Godless atheist, I'll do fine following my own conscience, thankyouverymuch.

21:18
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

21:19
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

21:20
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21:21
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

07-22-2003, 07:31 AM	#32
Alan N Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 68	to Whispers Whispers, I am right with you. I struggle now to gain a foothold at the edge of a precipace. This precipace is, for me, where the answers of science and the comfort of the material world end and the deep longings I experience begin. I am frustrated at my own inability to express in words what I long for. This is the essense of this precipace, this need for me. Perhaps God is right there...I don't know. I sure don't see Him, at least at this point. It doesn't mean I'm not looking for Him, just that I don't see him.

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07-22-2003, 07:23 AM	#31
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	(Sorry about my last post: I hadn't realised the argument had moved on from morality.) Thank you, Whispers, for your detailed reply to my earlier post. DMB answered your points as well as I could, but in total they exactly illustrate the substantial differences between us. And crucially this: yes, I am happy not knowing the answers to every question. I am confident that little by little we will discover more and more - and here�s the paradox which I think you will find unendurable: the more we know, the more aware we will become of how little we know and of how much more there is to find out. I think the human mind is embarked on a wonderful quest for knowledge, and one which will never end. It will lead to good things and bad things, as it has done since the journey began. But the alternative is worse because nothing, to my mind, is worse than the poisoned fruits of ignorance and superstition.

07-22-2003, 07:32 AM	#33
s5o8 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: UK Posts: 45	It might sound overly simplistic, but all your examples only illustrates that you can swap one addiction for another, like smoker quitting their smoking only to take up compulsive eating. Swapping a alcohol addiction for a �hope� addiction that�s all IMHO.

07-22-2003, 08:00 AM	#34
Whispers Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Drawing Closer to God inch by inch... Posts: 179	It could be that people needed to focus on something and that it was purely the act of focussing that made the difference, I don�t know. This is the issue though, that I am hoping to explore. Whilst they are nebulous and to some not worthy of discussion, I value the average mans expressions, experiences and stories. Not everything real and meaningful can be proven or repeated in a lab. I sometimes think that becoming too caught up with always looking for proof, can actually stop us directly and insightfully coming to realisations....again, I say that trust and faith must also apply when seeking answers. I say again that we must be able to communicate with each other in a space of trust and honesty. If we debate on this forum and I claim to have God in my life, am I automatically a liar, just because you don�t believe in God? Could I be telling the truth? Would you believe me if I say I am married? What about if I say that I am 30, and a vegetarian? What about if I tell you that I will not lie to you at all? Do I need to prove these things before you will accept them? Can we start at a position of trust and see how things go from there? I too must offer you the same courtesy and not automatically disagree with or disbelieve you, just because we don�t share the same point of view. Do you trust your partner, your colleagues, the media? Do you trust the scientists and the latest new found cure or discovery? What about our political leaders? Do you directly see the evidence of the results from scientific tests? If not, you are not seeing proof, you are seeing someone claim that it is proven and that is a massive difference? Or is that you do actually trust the faceless scientists and all of their marvellous discoveries? Whioch is it? Do you live by trust, or by proof? Or both? I expect like most people, it is both, but to differing degrees. You may trust the statements of scientists, unproven as they are, and refuse to believe in the statements of the bible or koran as they are also unproven? If you have a dad, is he really your biological father? If you say yes, how do you know FOR DEFINITE? Maybe you can find out, but how do you know right now? You don�t do you, its taken on faith and trust, like so many many things? Constantly saying prove it, and then feeling smug when it cannot be proven seems to me to be a respone which only invovles the mind and not the heart. Truth is a matter for the intellect and the heart. It has thought, reflection, emotion and insightfullness buried in it.

07-22-2003, 08:19 AM	#35
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I say again that we must be able to communicate with each other in a space of trust and honesty. If we debate on this forum and I claim to have God in my life, am I automatically a liar, just because you don�t believe in God? Could I be telling the truth? I think I can speak for most here in saying that we don't doubt that you indeed have God in your life. We don't think you're lying. The caveat is that we think the God you have in your life, like all gods, is a human concept invented a long time ago as an explanation for many of the questions you asked (e.g. "Why?") and not an extant being that provides Meaning to this otherwise Meaningless existence.

07-22-2003, 08:22 AM	#36
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Whispers, from the first page: PROVE it to me......I dare you... Whispers, from the second page: Constantly saying prove it, and then feeling smug when it cannot be proven seems to me to be a respone which only invovles the mind and not the heart. ???

07-22-2003, 08:25 AM	#37
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Dear Whispers - the sceptical mind (I spell it that way because I'm English) is something one either wants and wishes to sharpen, or is repelled by. Personally, I have a horror of being taken in, tricked, made a fool of (and goodness knows, it has happened often enough.) I am not innately suspicious of people and their motives, but I want to train my mind so that it readily detects the impossible. I don�t believe in magic. I don�t even want to believe in magic. If I see something which purports to be magic, I am immediately suspicious and begin to look for rational explanations. The atheists you�ve met here simply do not share the requirement common to Believers to incorporate the Mysterious into their every-day lives. Our needs are different.

07-22-2003, 09:22 AM	#39
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Whispers: If you say you have god in your life, I have no reason to suppose you are lying, any more than if someone suffering from delirium tremens claims to see purple elephants. It's all a matter of interpretation. You seem touchingly keen to get us to consider the possibility of your god. All we need is faith or trust. But why faith in your particular god? Why not believe in Odin or Kali? What's so special about yours? You post from the UK, so it's a fair bet that you have mainly been exposed to the xian god. I suspect I am a bit older than you, and growing up mainly in the UK I certainly had a lot of xianity thrust at me, being forced at school to learn chunks of the bible, etc. So did you do any shopping around? Did you investigate buddhism or hinduism or perhaps the religion of the aztecs? From where I stand, they all look alike to me, and since they can't all be true, why should any of them? I really don't know whether any gods exist, but I call myself an atheist because I don't see any evidence that they do. If you want us to take up your call to have faith and trust in something for which we don't see convincing evidence, you'll have to focus on why we should pick just one.

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