Jobar

My thanks to Normal, in this thread, for bringing up this question. It seems to me very relevant to all arguments about the J/C version of God.

In the McHugh vs. Kreuger debate, McHugh attempts to define God as 'without deficiency'. If this were so, just how can any religious person claim that God in any way needs our belief or praise? How can an omnipotent and omniscient being lack for anything at all- in fact, just what reason might He have for creating a temporal universe? If God has wants or desires or lacks, then he is not omnisufficient (to coin a term)- and thus could not be omnipotent.

Cross Examiner

Hey Jobar, good morning (I'm on PST). You write:

Without getting into great depth, I understand this issue, praise to God, from the distinct notions of enjoyment (experiential pleasure) and need (existential dependence). God enjoys our praise but does not need it for sustenance. We need to praise God in order to enjoy God and our own lives fully, as intended in our creation.

Caveat: These are my own thoughts, not binding upon all of Christianity, as I have no idea, precisely, where they came from except from the amalgam of Scriptural understanding and my own personal experience. That is, just a thought -- as a conversation starter .

Sincerely,
BGiC

Normal

Glad I could help Jobar

That is actually one of my main about the Christian god. Why does he "need" worship?

Spenser

If he were omnisuffcient he wouldn't need entertainment either, and if he didn't need entertainment what kind of interest could he hold for a universe?

The apologetic arguement cannot be used here, example:

God is Omnipotent meaning he can do anything that is logically possible.

but it makes no sense to say

God is Omnisufficient meaning he doesn't need anything that is logically not needed ???

Can that even be rewritten in a way to make sense?

I like this arguement...

Cross Examiner

Buenos dias Spencer. You write:

He needs us to praise Him in the sense that I need my son to grow healthy and strong. I would hardly call the development of my child entertainment though I do glory in such things, the deprivation of which does not result in any deficiency in my nature as a man. So much more so for God, a wholly self-sufficient being.

Linked below is an articulate, thorough, logical, Scriptural description of God and His character, courtesy of the British Isle. Gotta hand it to the Brits for mastery of the language, then again, it would stand to reason that the English would master English .

http://www.truthzone.co.uk/WHC02xAttributes.htm

Amaranth

That description isn't complete. God attributes himself as being a "jealous god" at one point, and this attribute is mysteriously left out. I have little doubt this is not the only one, but it certainly is the most striking one.

Cross Examiner

How-d Amaranth. Good to see you again. You write:

Ah yes, is God characterized by "jealousy"? If He is, then His jealousy will necessarily extend beyond a specific objective, no? Conversely, God is love regardless whether or not there is a human object of that love. This is a bit of a tangent, but...time for some context.

Ye Olde Dictionary; jealous:
Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

Exodus 34:10-16

10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD , will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [1] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

We see above a specific objective for jealousy, not an absolute characteristic. How so? God was jealous of the fidelity of a specific people for a specific purpose for a specific end, the reconciliation of man. Ergo, God was jealous for our sake, not for His. He does not need our fidelity, we need fidelity to God.

So, there is an objective, apart from an intrinsic need in God, for this jealousy, namely, too keep Israel pure. Holy Israel Batman! Tell me again why is it important to keep Israel separate from all others? Stay tuned 'til next time! Same bat-time, same bat-channel !

Sincerely,
BGiC

Spenser

Wholly self-sufficient eh?

My point being we have children because we have needs. We may need love or we need to procreate to spread our genes or we may need more meaning in our lives or we may need sex (but not face the consequences till they're too late) or we may need something to beat (for the sick fucks out there) but God as typically defined has NO needs.

Suggestion he has needs of any sort goes against the idea that he is lacking in deficiency of any kind. And if originally, pre-universe he had no needs, why make it?

Amaranth

Heya BG

I fear I have to disagree with your interpretation of the verse. The line "14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." seems relatively unequivocal to me, in that god is providing a self-characterization. God wants their worship, and does not want to give them up to other gods. Verses 14-16 say nothing about the Jew's well being, but reads as more centered on god not losing followers.

This attribute of jealousy is also reflected in the ten commandments (No gods before me), and (if memory serves), the worshippers of Baal. Gods reaction, especially during Exodus, to people worshipping other gods before him is generally very quick and very deadly. These all seem in line with the self-proclimation to be a jealous god. Thus, I feel, taken either in chapter or book context, the message is the same - your gods name is Jealous, and is a jealous god.

Wyz_sub10

Your "need" for your son's development is a based on feelings of security (you fear for him) or accomplishment (take pride in him) or uncertainty (hope for him).

I'm not sure any of these could logically be attributed to the J/C god vis-à-vis worship.