Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lasher · 04-08-2003, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madfish
What does that mean? I at least adhere and represent the bible as it speaks, how am I stereotyping?

I mean c'mon, you know traditional fundamental Christianity see's homosexuality as wrong, and the bible says it's an abomination and those that are partaking in it will be denied the kingdom of heaven.

So what else can be concluded when dealing with a Christian website?

You had plenty of opportunity to show that the bible was wrong on this, and you couldn't.

I sympathise with you on your avatar, that's a tough call, I think what made it worse is that you proclaimed to be Christian while touting an avatar that for all intents and purposes says gay since birth, now that is a contradiction to God's nature and his will for mankind. Also there is NO gay gene to be found so being born gay is an unproven theory, also even if you think you were born gay, the bible tells you that you can be delivered from this.

Was it bad enough to be banned for? I can't say. Were you given an opportunity to change or discuss your avatar?

Just to clarify, as your last thread at CF was kinda confusing, along with your bible contradictions and so forth, are you a Christian?

Yes I am a christian

ju'iblex · 04-08-2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

I sympathise with you on your avatar, that's a tough call, I think what made it worse is that you proclaimed to be Christian while touting an avatar that for all intents and purposes says gay since birth, now that is a contradiction to God's nature and his will for mankind. Also there is NO gay gene to be found so being born gay is an unproven theory, also even if you think you were born gay, the bible tells you that you can be delivered from this.

sad, or pathetic, im entirely unsure at this point. you dont know his will, thats gods job, and all you have for evidence is a bible, meanwhile there are the testimonies of thousands of people like myself saying its both not a choice and something which has always been.

which do i trust, rotting vellum scraps or empirical evidence. always a tough choice.

Badfish · 04-08-2003, 08:47 PM

Ooops my wife logged in my computer while I was away, she is Madfish.

Gunnaheave · 04-08-2003, 08:48 PM

I love the fact that it took so long to notice your avatar Lasher. I also love the way that Mr. Cheese takes the queestionable judgement (whether or not your avatar is unacceptable) and treats it as an obvious fact. Since he cannot make a good argument for the fact, he simply presents it as needing no argument. And after shit like that people wonder why some of us have so little respect for conservative Christianity.

Smilin, I'll miss you over there, assuming I don't get myself kicked back over here in short order.

Badfish · 04-08-2003, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ju'iblex
sad, or pathetic, im entirely unsure at this point. you dont know his will, thats gods job, and all you have for evidence is a bible, meanwhile there are the testimonies of thousands of people like myself saying its both not a choice and something which has always been.

which do i trust, rotting vellum scraps or empirical evidence. always a tough choice.

The bible says it no less than 6 times, it is a known when discussing the bible.

Where is your empirical proof that says being born gay is a proof?

Since science hasn't found a gay gene, I would have to conclude that you have no case.

You cannot prove that societal pressures and impressions are not a factor to even the youngest person, there is so much corruption in the world that it would be hard for you to prove that gayness is genetic and not because of social pressures, or any of the many factors that could persuade someone to choose to be gay.

Badfish · 04-08-2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasher
Yes I am a christian

But you believe the bible doesn't represent God correctly, am I right? I am just going by what you post at CF.

mfaber · 04-08-2003, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madfish

Also there is NO gay gene to be found so being born gay is an unproven theory, also even if you think you were born gay, the bible tells you that you can be delivered from this.

And as we all know, the Bible is so 'reliable" in it's scientific pronouncements(NOT!)
:banghead:

:banghead:

As for homosexuality being "unnatural" in the natural world, you really are intent on ignoring the FACT the homosexuality is rife in nature (yes, animals "do it").

HOMOSEXUAL UNNATURAL???

The riff by some Christians about homosexuality being "unnatural" in that it doesn't happen among other animals only displays an immense ignorance of sexual behavior in the animal world. I am just going to post this in counter to that ......

Is homosexual behavior normal?

Quote:

Homosexual behavior is natural in the sense that it is extensively found in nature. It has been observed in: antelopes, boars, bulls, chimpanzees, cows, ducks, cats, dogs, fruit flies, geese, gorillas, gulls, horses, humans, langurs, rams, sheep, macaques, monkeys, turkeys and vervets.

Bruce Bagemihl, a biologist from Seattle, WA, found that in zoos, at least 5% of Humboldt penguin pairs are gay. He has prepared an encyclopedic survey of homosexual or transgender behavior among more than 190 species, including butterflies and other insects. An Amazon.com reviewer commented: "Throw this book into the middle of a crowd of wildlife biologists and watch them scatter. But Bagemihl doesn't let the scientific community's discomfort deny him the opportunity to show 'the love that dare not bark its name' in all its feathery, furry, toothy diversity." 7 The reviews of this book are well worth reading for their own value.

Whiptail lizards, (Cnemidophorus neomexicanus) found in the American southwest, are all females. They reproduce by parthenogenesis. Unfertilized eggs develop, producing an exact clone of its mother. Even though no males exist, the females still exhibit sexual mating behavior. Those that attract a partner have been found to produce more and healthier eggs.
Another source states that "Homosexuality exists in proven ratios in all mammal species....It is as natural as blue eyes, left-handedness, or the genetic predisposition to walk on two legs."

The Bonobo

Quote:

The doyens of pop exposition of the biological origins of human nature beat their drums. True, we are not unique, but we are killer apes. It runs in the family, so to speak. Patriarchy, warfare, greed, politics, they are all in our genes. Alas for determinism. Our other cousin is a firm practioner of the "make love, not war" approach to life. It was the fashion among pop expositors to count us as a uniquely sexy species. It turns out that we are quite staid and sedate in our ways.

Heterosexual sex, female homosexuality, male homosexuality, oral-genital sex, mutual masturbation, even deep-tongue kissing, they do it all - frequently. With enthusiasm. It's part of their social repertoire. Are things getting tense? Make love and relax. Even more disturbing for those who would ground "the way things are" in biological determinism, our kissing cousins (and kiss they do) have a female dominant social structure. Horrors and gee-willikers!

Bonobo Sex and Society (how we are related to the bonobo)

Quote:

This finding commands attention because the bonobo shares more than 98 percent of our genetic profile, making it as close to a human as, say, a fox is to a dog. The split between the human line of ancestry and the line of the chimpanzee and the bonobo is believed to have occurred a mere eight million years ago. The subsequent divergence of the chimpanzee and the bonobo lines came much later, perhaps prompted by the chimpanzee's need to adapt to relatively open, dry habitats [see "East Side Story: The Origin of Humankind," by Yves Coppens; SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, May 1994].

Considering how what close genetic relatives we are to the bonobo, our social structure and sexual behavior is "abnormal" by comparison to the "natural" state... Think about it!

Homosexuality and Biology

Quote:

Kinsey and his co-workers for many years attempted to find patients who had been converted from homosexuality to heterosexuality during therapy, and were surprised that they could not find one whose sexual orientation had been changed. When they interviewed persons who claimed they had been homosexuals but were now functioning heterosexually, they found that all these men were simply suppressing homosexual behavior. . . and that they used homosexual fantasies to maintain potency when they attempted intercourse. One man claimed that, although he had once been actively homosexual, he had now "cut out all of that and don't even think of men -- except when I masturbate."

Homosexuality/ Research

Quote:

The Brain is the main essence of human life. Everything we voluntarily or involutarily do is controlled by the brain. Researchers felt that the brain was a good place to start to look for the origin of homosexuality. A study done by Simon Levay showed that the interstitial nuclei of the hypothalamus, or INAH3, was found to be smaller in homosexual men compared to that of heterosexual men. The size of the INAH3 was found to be around the same size as that of heterosexual women. Research done on laboratory animals showed that the INAH3 was a part of the brain that dealt with sexual expression. (more biological studies).......
The Hypothetical Genetics of Sexual Orientation/Levay

Even though all of the biological/genetic/environmental parameters of human sexuality have not been completely worked out, the bottom-line is that homosexuality is "natural"(it does occur in nature). All religionists, looking for a self-righteous indignation trip, or a holier-than-thou ego trip "fix" at the expense of homosexuals really need to get an new one IMO.....

The bottom line is that fundies need to disguise prejudice in the mantle of virtue by having it become a command of God ("gracious " submission of women, homosexuality an abomination, sex is dirty unless someone performs a ritual over you...yadah yaddah!). This is very handy since this God is invisible and can't be called "on the carpet" for examination. Now armed with the "God-excuse'" fundies can freely practice their prejudices and when called on say "But it's Gods will/command!" This is just a way to not accept responsibility for one's actions and is a variant of the refuge in authority excuse... Prime example are Nazi war criminals trying to excuse their behavior by saying "but I was just following orders". The Religious Reich has only exchanged Hitler (authority to commit crimes) to God (authority to commit and enshine as law of the land, their prejudices)

beoba · 04-08-2003, 09:05 PM

Out of curiousity, any of the technically inclined here willing to put up a database of these incidents? It'd be nice to have a straightforward list of user (mis)treatment on that board.

My story: After getting a warning from "gunnysgt" (or something similar) for disagreeing with him/her, I decided that I shouldn't bother going to the CF anymore, as my opinions aren't wanted due to their being different from the opinions of the moderators.

I guess they just really like preaching to the choir.

Badfish · 04-08-2003, 09:10 PM

You have given me all that info before remember mfaber? Atheist Forum, GTX, yeah.

I am not disputing what humans describe and define as natural, Christianity has it's form of defining morality.

Also just because animals do it doesn't mean it is natural in the eyes of God (as evidenced by the bible) or that God defines it as natural for mankind.

We are not Bonobo's, and the bible addresses mankinds salvation and standards, not the animals, God gave dominion to mankind over the animals.

Animals (non homosapien) do not live by the same set of morals, they live by instinct (which could include a form of instilled morality) and sometimes that is altered by living arrangements for the animal whether it's because of humanity or because of natural restrictions.

And I don't want to derail this thread anymore, I would be willing to fruitlessly discuss this in another thread.

Basically, if you don't believe the bible is correct or believe in God, then there is an obvious morality conflict that will never be reconciled between Christians and non believers/new age Christians�, or atheists.

Badfish · 04-08-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphatronics
Out of curiousity, any of the technically inclined here willing to put up a database of these incidents? It'd be nice to have a straightforward list of user (mis)treatment on that board.

My story: After getting a warning from "gunnysgt" (or something similar) for disagreeing with him/her, I decided that I shouldn't bother going to the CF anymore, as my opinions aren't wanted due to their being different from the opinions of the moderators.

I guess they just really like preaching to the choir.

What was the nature of your opinions? Were they against the rules?

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04-08-2003, 08:47 PM	#683
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	Ooops my wife logged in my computer while I was away, she is Madfish.

04-08-2003, 08:48 PM	#684
Gunnaheave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: AZ Posts: 3,250	I love the fact that it took so long to notice your avatar Lasher. I also love the way that Mr. Cheese takes the queestionable judgement (whether or not your avatar is unacceptable) and treats it as an obvious fact. Since he cannot make a good argument for the fact, he simply presents it as needing no argument. And after shit like that people wonder why some of us have so little respect for conservative Christianity. Smilin, I'll miss you over there, assuming I don't get myself kicked back over here in short order.

04-08-2003, 09:05 PM	#688
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	Out of curiousity, any of the technically inclined here willing to put up a database of these incidents? It'd be nice to have a straightforward list of user (mis)treatment on that board. My story: After getting a warning from "gunnysgt" (or something similar) for disagreeing with him/her, I decided that I shouldn't bother going to the CF anymore, as my opinions aren't wanted due to their being different from the opinions of the moderators. I guess they just really like preaching to the choir.

04-08-2003, 09:10 PM	#689
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	You have given me all that info before remember mfaber? Atheist Forum, GTX, yeah. I am not disputing what humans describe and define as natural, Christianity has it's form of defining morality. Also just because animals do it doesn't mean it is natural in the eyes of God (as evidenced by the bible) or that God defines it as natural for mankind. We are not Bonobo's, and the bible addresses mankinds salvation and standards, not the animals, God gave dominion to mankind over the animals. Animals (non homosapien) do not live by the same set of morals, they live by instinct (which could include a form of instilled morality) and sometimes that is altered by living arrangements for the animal whether it's because of humanity or because of natural restrictions. And I don't want to derail this thread anymore, I would be willing to fruitlessly discuss this in another thread. Basically, if you don't believe the bible is correct or believe in God, then there is an obvious morality conflict that will never be reconciled between Christians and non believers/new age Christians�, or atheists.

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