conkermaniac

I didn't say most Christians would...only that many would -- just as many as there are in Islam.

Jat

That is because most Christians of today are not as influenced by their beliefs as they once were. Most are more secular than sectarian.

There are some very brutal laws listed in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy (I can't remember which for sure) that most Christians don't follow nowadays.

simian

Well, (showing rather bluntly Muslims are not the only people who treat women like crap) here is an example of how women are treated in the US (free registration).

From the article:
Saying Muslims are unique in their treatment of women is complete and utter crap.

Please note this is a local paper, with current events. I didn't have to do any special searching to find this.

Simain

The SwampThing

Let me just say this kind of treatment is not exclusive of arab nations alone. Infact, it happens throughout the world. Here in Portugal, there are now 3 seperate cases of acid burning crimes being tried in court, where boyfriends used the stuff to get even with their girlfriends, either because they cheated on them, or because they dumped them. Even one case, where it was the woman who dumped acid on a guy!!
Anyway, it happens everywhere, not just muslim countries.
What happens is, many anti-muslim organizations or people are always digging for anything like this, to demonize the other side some more. We see many americans using stuff like this to justify the war in Iraq, and yet they say nothing about Iraq�s neighbour Saudi Arabia, wich has some really sadistic laws and discriminate women in a much worst way than Iraq ever did!
Iraq was one of the few arab countries to have equal rights for women, and they could work freely and with the same pay! But because Saudi Arabia is a US ally, they keep silent!!
Talk about hipocritical behaviour!!
Let�s keep in mind that black folks only got to vote in the US only some 30 years ago, and in many states they are still treated like slaves! Instead of going around pointing other countries injusices and crimes, some people should look first inside their own borders.
A good example is the death penalty:
The US is up there, in the list of the most capital punishment using nations, along with China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and North Korea. How cool is that, eh?
And what about serial killers?? Ever thought about that?
:banghead: :banghead:

conkermaniac

Even though I totally agree with your point, could I just ask you one thing...is North Korea really at the top of the list in capital punishment? For some reason, I'm doubting that as they don't really have a huge population, even if they have a not-so-nice ruler.

The SwampThing

Its not about population numbers, its about how many capital punishments they issue to convicts! The number of people in a country doesn�t matter. And besides that, North Korea is not that small. Although not huge in territory, they have a heavy populational density per square mile! Almost the same as China and India.

echidna

Umm, that's possibly the reason I don't think anyone in this thread has actually made such a claim. Anecdotes from both sides are easy to produce, but any conclusion between Islam and Christianity can only be made in very broad terms, and anecdotes won't prove general statements. Your anecdote supports the bleedin' obvious.

echidna

So what is modern Christianity if not the Christians who follow it ? If modern Christians are generally more secular, then surely this also reflects on modern Christianity itself. There would seem to be a Scotsman fallacy somewhere in prescribing Christians the moral duty to follow the law according to Deuteronomy.

Jat

What defines a Christian more than the people is the bible itself. Christianity is known as the religion of the Book. The way which most Christians are now proves that Christianity is in fact a dying belief system.

Zephyrus

I think that everyone is talking past one another. We all agree that, while many Moslem women face harsh oppression, Western culture has in the past (and continuing to a somewhat lesser degree even into the present) subjected women to equally harsh repression and subjugation. All around the table, we denounce this cultural misogynism wherever it might arise, and yet condemn each other for supposedly making excuses for it.

Do Moslem women and girls have it worse off than those in liberal Western cultures? Obviously, they do�but it�s also true of any women in any underdeveloped area. I�m sure that if you went to rural sub-Saharan Africa, you could find tribal religions equally harmful to women.

(By the way, all too often Christians, whom many of you claim offer far better treatment toward women, also practice FGM. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm)

Throughout the world, from Russia to South Africa, courts and legal systems all too often minimize or outright ignore cases of rape, especially marital rape, and domestic violence.

Should any of these examples serve to excuse the subjugation of Moslem women found in many countries? Of course not. But everything must be viewed in context. If someone created a thread entitled �Atheists: they rape and murder,� everyone would rightly heap scorn and ridicule upon the creator of it. Not because atheists don�t commit those crimes, but because the poster is attempting to malign us by implication.

The point of all this being that when everything is taken into consideration, the oppression of women is not a function of the Islamic religion, but rather of culture and how much modernizing, liberal influence that culture has received. Islam (along with its female adherents, alas) has generally come out at the bottom of this equation, but that does not necessarily indicate anything about whether Islam itself is responsible for this.

Any belief system can be interpreted in a multitude of ways, from highly destructive and conservative to most liberating and liberal. It all depends on the cultural context in which it appears. Although the Koran contains many misogynistic statements which would seem to lend to Islamic cultures a tendency of perpetual denial of women�s rights, so too does the Bible. The only difference is that the Enlightenment has shaken some sense into Christians� heads. Many of my Muslim friends, exposed to this liberal Enlightenment culture, are some of the most tolerant, pro-female people I know (far more so than fundamentalist Christians and other ideologically bankrupt conservatives found in America).

All of us agree that oppression of women is bad. However, calling Islam or any other religion inherently evil is not the answer; that can only alienate potential converts to the secular gospel of social justice and human rights for everyone, including women. Instead, we should focus on furthering acceptance of that vision within the already existing religious and cultural frameworks, irrespective of where or what they might be. Instead of �Is Islam evil or not?� we should ask the far better question of �How can we work to make things better?�