Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sakrilege · 01-12-2003, 09:17 AM

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer, a story about a Franciscan friar in training, Daniel Montgomery, who is accused of murdering a priest.

Quote:

Montgomery was treated for depression in 1995, his mother said, but she did not know the details.

Janice Montgomery recently found something her son wrote, an undated dialogue between himself and God. It begins with him asking God to give him strength "to take up my cross and follow in your footsteps." God replies that he must have faith and not avoid that which is unpleasant.

God: Don't try to hide in depression or some other excuse.

Me: I keep telling myself to do these things, but my words of encouragement always seem to fail.

God: Then, go beyond words and do some action. Your attitude must be one of victory if you're going to win.

Amie · 01-12-2003, 11:43 AM

When a religious belief takes you to such an extreme of harming, injuring, or killing another human being in the name of your belief it is a terrible thing.

Bill Snedden · 01-12-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
When a religious belief takes you to such an extreme of harming, injuring, or killing another human being in the name of your belief it is a terrible thing.

...even if God told you to do it?

As a Christian, you must accept that God might command you to kill; the Bible provides numerous examples of similar situations. How would you differentiate between "the voice of God" and the "voice in your head that sounds like God"?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Amie · 01-12-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
...even if God told you to do it?

As a Christian, you must accept that God might command you to kill; the Bible provides numerous examples of similar situations. How would you differentiate between "the voice of God" and the "voice in your head that sounds like God"?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Yes even if God told me to do it. If I suffer for defiance so be it. Many Christians may disagree with me and that is fine. I am the one who has to live with myself and that does not involve hurting people.

As far as differentiating the voices, I am not so sure how one could differentiate. I have never heard God nor heard any voice inside my head for that matter...

sakrilege · 01-12-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
Yes even if God told me to do it.

What do you think about Abraham? He's revered for his obediance to god's command.

philechat · 01-12-2003, 12:37 PM

It all depends on the famous "Eurythro Dilemma" of Plato. Is goodness "good" because it is determined by God as good, or did God determine a thing "good" because the thing is itself good? Given God's omnibenevolence (determined a priori by Abraham) humans should suspend their own moral judgments in deferrence to God's will, since God's will is always "good". It is the only logical position to take if God is the creator of all values of "goodness".

Once we defied God's commendments, we are assuming "good" and "evil" to exist independent of God's will, i.e. God's will is not always "good".

thetoastman · 01-15-2003, 11:34 AM

Damn straight, my friend. Damn fine post.

Sakrilege is cool, though. We're discussing reincarnation, and I want to see what a smart person has to say.

Shake · 01-15-2003, 01:19 PM

I went and read the whole article. It's a sad story. I'm always suspect of the whole split personality defense, because someone could fake it. There are those who may seem cold and emotionless most of the time, but sometimes their passions do get the best of them. It's about control. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate cases, I'm just skeptical of them.

Still, you gotta wonder about what effect all of the religious training had on him.

sakrilege · 01-15-2003, 04:45 PM

thetoastman
Sakrilege is cool, though.

Why, thank you thetoastman, I'm very flattered! It's not often I get to use this icon.

Shake
Still, you gotta wonder about what effect all of the religious training had on him.

I was struck by 2 things. First, that he had a history of mental illness but seemed to think it a weakness of will.

Second, that he seemed sincere in heeding what he considered a calling to a religious life but all the prayer that had to go into that failed miserably.

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01-12-2003, 11:43 AM	#2
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	When a religious belief takes you to such an extreme of harming, injuring, or killing another human being in the name of your belief it is a terrible thing.

01-12-2003, 12:37 PM	#6
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	It all depends on the famous "Eurythro Dilemma" of Plato. Is goodness "good" because it is determined by God as good, or did God determine a thing "good" because the thing is itself good? Given God's omnibenevolence (determined a priori by Abraham) humans should suspend their own moral judgments in deferrence to God's will, since God's will is always "good". It is the only logical position to take if God is the creator of all values of "goodness". Once we defied God's commendments, we are assuming "good" and "evil" to exist independent of God's will, i.e. God's will is not always "good".

01-15-2003, 11:34 AM	#7
thetoastman Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: La Mirada, SoCAL Posts: 11	Damn straight, my friend. Damn fine post. Sakrilege is cool, though. We're discussing reincarnation, and I want to see what a smart person has to say.

01-15-2003, 01:19 PM	#8
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	I went and read the whole article. It's a sad story. I'm always suspect of the whole split personality defense, because someone could fake it. There are those who may seem cold and emotionless most of the time, but sometimes their passions do get the best of them. It's about control. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate cases, I'm just skeptical of them. Still, you gotta wonder about what effect all of the religious training had on him.

01-15-2003, 04:45 PM	#9
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	thetoastman Sakrilege is cool, though. Why, thank you thetoastman, I'm very flattered! It's not often I get to use this icon. Shake Still, you gotta wonder about what effect all of the religious training had on him. I was struck by 2 things. First, that he had a history of mental illness but seemed to think it a weakness of will. Second, that he seemed sincere in heeding what he considered a calling to a religious life but all the prayer that had to go into that failed miserably.

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