Goriller

Forum member "Jesus Christ" wrote:

Yes, the moral and "case" laws but not the ceremonial laws.

No. That would fall under a ceremonial law.

What verse are you referring to?

I assume you are referring to Deuteronomy 22:28 - "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

This was not rape, but seduction. "Lay hold" is Strongs Hebrew word #8610. A couple other references with 8610 read as follows:

Genesis 4:21 - "And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle (8610) the harp and organ."

Habakuk 2:19 - "Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid (8610) over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it."

Additionally, look at the context. A mere 3 verses earlier in verse 25 we see a clear case of rape when it says, "But if a man finds an engaged girl in the field, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man that lay with her shall die."

Now look at verse 28:

"If a man finds a girl, a virgin not engaged, and lays hold on her, and lies with her, and they are found,"

Hmmmm. What happened to the word "forces"? You think just maybe God was trying to point out a distinction between these two cases?

The word that is translated "forces" is the hebrew word "chazaq" and is a much stronger verb than "taphas" in verse 28. "Chazaq" is the same word that is used for the clear rape of Tamar in 2 Samuel 13:11.

Additionally, notice that in verse 28 it says they are found, not he is found. She was in on the act.

This was a ceremonial law thus would not be applicable today.

Buffman

Goriller

This is C-SS and Secular Activism Forum. However, if the government of the U.S. were to ever become the responsible authority for carrying out the edicts found in the Judeo-Christian Bible, How would they invoke the following directives?

<a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T583" target="_blank">http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T583</a>

Now read this and convince me that there is no reason to actively resist efforts to destroy our secular government in favor of a Christian fundamentalist/reconstructionist one. (And this was written over 8 years ago.

<a href="http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/chrisre3.html" target="_blank">http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/chrisre3.html</a>

Ronin

Goriller ~

Please itemize for me exactly which laws you perceive as acceptable 'case' laws to abide by and which are the 'ceremonial' laws that are listed but now useless.

Also, explain why 'ceremonial' laws are invalidated and 'case' laws are not.

Coragyps

And Goriller, please clarify for me whether the "abomination" of seafood without scales is different than the "abomination" of men "lying with each other." If your waiter at Red Lobster happens to be gay, are you in even bigger trouble?

lpetrich

Also, the Bible does not lay out where the moral laws end and the ceremonial laws begin.

Goriller

Which forum should this thread be moved to?

Grumpy

Goriller, in pointing out the "marriage penalty" in Deuteronomy 22:28, you skipped right over some other verses that prescribe death for a "seduced" woman -- but only if the "seduction" happens in an urban area.

"Stone disobedient children" is, I believe, a reference to Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Are these civil laws, or ceremonial?

Buffman

Goriller

Which forum should this thread be moved to?

Quite honestly, I'm not sure. I guess that was your problem as well. However, I feel that the subject matter might get a better play, although it did attract plenty of queries right here, if it were in MFP or MRD.

I did attempt to give it a C-SS spin.

Goriller

My apologies in advance to the webmaster if I'm violating any I.I. rules by copying and pasting large chunks of text but the link I would like to provide is down. Fortunately I had saved it before it went kaput. The following comes from <a href="http://www.shadowgov.com" target="_blank">http://www.shadowgov.com</a> and comes the closest to resembling my views on the subject of a Bibliocracy:

The Constitution of America

[Rationale: Biblical, Political]

A constitutional monarchy governs America. This government shall perform only its two just functions [B P], protecting the God-given rights [B P] of every person within its jurisdiction and providing the infrastructure [B P] helpful in defending those rights.

The Monarchy [B P]

As ruler and defender of America, the King is the supreme judge in the land. The armed forces serve at his command, as do all subdivisions of government. The King will uphold this Constitution and protect America’s sovereignty.

The Judiciary [B P]

Judges publicly resolve disputes, determine the guilt or innocence of the accused [B P], sentence convicts, and direct punishment. The Monarch appoints up to ten men as judges who each appoint ten men as judges beneath them, who each appoint ten men as judges beneath them, and so on [B P] corresponding to America’s population until a judge presides over one hundred households in his neighborhood. These Judges of One Hundred appoint two judges under them each over fifty households. These Judges of Fifty appoint judges under them each over ten households.

A judge may observe and advise another during trial [B P], may promote cases to his superior including all cases directly affecting a higher jurisdiction [B P], and may escalate cases of his subordinates [B P].

A judge serves at his own will, and that of his superiors or the Monarch. The King can appoint or dismiss any judge. Judges shall enforce America’s Criminal Code [B P] and her Code of Use. Defendants have no right to appeal [B P]. A judge may be accused of negligence and then tried by one of his superiors [B P]. Judges serve when needed [B P] and receive no payment [B P]. America prohibits juries [B P].

A judge at his discretion holds in custody the credibly accused, especially one considered at risk of flight. A likely sentence of lengthy indentured servitude, significant corporal, or capital punishment mandates incarceration until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses suffices for conviction, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence. [B P]

Armed Forces [B P]

The King commands the military only to protect America¾her persons, land, and resources¾and also, at his discretion, to defend her allies. [P] Military officials serve at his will. America staffs all her military with non-conscripted personnel [P] and her combat and field support troops with adult males [P].

Regional Authorities [B P]

The Monarch appoints officials over regions, states, counties, and municipalities. To these subordinates he delegates authority only to appoint and manage subordinates, to thwart, apprehend, and investigate suspected criminals, to protect people and property in time of natural disaster, to manage infrastructure, and to designate real estate zoning according to America’s Code of Use.

Responsibilities of Subjects

Each person within America’s jurisdiction has the responsibility to obey her Constitution, Criminal Code, and Code of Use.

Rights of Subjects [B P]

Each person, including visiting foreigners, has God-given rights that this Government exists to protect, including the right to:

Life and Liberty
Speech that does not promote crime

Buy, own and use property
Due process of law

Corporally punish his children
Buy, own, and carry firearms

Protect the innocent
Fail


No person has a right to food, water, clothing, shelter, energy, healthcare, or education. [B P] The Government must not give or subsidize such resources to any person, nor can America compel charitable giving.

America’s Criminal Code [B P]

The Monarch shall obey America’s Criminal Code incorporated by reference herein, and enforce it upon all persons within his jurisdiction. A person who violates Americans from abroad will not be beyond America’s desire and attempt to bring him to justice, so as with a person here who violates others abroad.

America’s Code of Use [B P]

The King shall enforce America’s Code of Use upon everyone acting within her boundaries. America’s usage code, incorporated by reference herein, contains America’s Real Estate Zoning Code and America’s Use of Infrastructure.

Infrastructure [B P]

The King has authority to provide and maintain land, water, air, and space transportation infrastructure, [B P] but may never thereby derive revenue nor charge any usage fee [B P]. The government can utilize private firms to build and maintain transportation infrastructure [B P]. And the King may privatize infrastructure excepting that for land or water transportation [B P]. He has authority to regulate, without fee, the use of radio frequencies and water resources [B P], and he also may manage parks and forests [B P]; and he may purchase and sell property [B P], and for vital government needs and infrastructure, the King may purchase real property at triple its value from unwilling sellers [B P].

The Treasury [B P]

The King has authority to levy only one tax, an increase tax, with a maximum rate of five percent of income. [P] The King shall not employ tax collectors. [P] A subject remits taxes at least monthly, unless he generates income less frequently, in which case he remits any taxes due at least annually. Thieves convicted of tax evasion will be flogged and pay to the King double restitution of the tax owed. [P] When the Monarch estimates the Treasury surplus sufficient to fund the government for seven years he shall reduce the tax rate to one percent of income for that year. [P] The King may invest the surplus, only in ventures consistent with the principles of this Constitution, but must refund the same percentage of his annual salary as any percentage loss of the principle invested.

The King may disburse revenue only, as specifically enumerated herein, for the protection of rights and for infrastructure, and never to support any form of welfare [P], socialism [P], communism [P], or public education [P]. He cannot bring the Treasury into indebtedness. [P] Greater spending than provided for by the authorized tax, as perhaps needed in time of war, must be funded by freewill offerings. The King compensates himself annually with the maximum of one thousand times the income of America’s average taxpayer from the previous year [P].

The King grants an exemption from paying tax for the year to any person who has engraved or molded the Constitution of America on a structure enduringly open to public view. He extends similar tax relief a second and final time to one who, having so published this Constitution, in a subsequent year durably engraves America’s Criminal Code onto a lasting structure in public view. [P]

Succession Process [B P]

The Monarch’s eldest son shall succeed him. [B P]

Upon inauguration of this Constitution, or, if the King meets his death and has no successor, America will hold a lottery to select the King [B P]. The Queen, or if none, the deceased King’s eldest daughter, or if none, America’s chief military officer, will oversee the national lottery. The overseer will draw lots to select one of the States of America, then a county, then a town or like geographic area, then a neighborhood or subdivision, then a block, then a family, then within that family a man of any age [B P], whom the overseer crowns King.

America will remain without a King for at most seven days until the completion of the lottery. The military, judges and regional authorities will continue to protect America during the interregnum remaining loyal to their existing officials and to the lottery overseer. The military must enforce a King’s command posthumously to prosecute and, if convicted, execute a prince suspected of murdering his father [B P].

Within the military and for every level of government this Constitution prohibits democracy [B P].

Treaties [B P]

America shall not enter into a foreign treaty. [B P] She shall honor existing treaties inherited from our predecessor governments. [B P] She shall release herself from any treaty broken by a partner or requiring her to take unjust action. [B P] Further, America shall seek release from treaty obligations from faithful partners.

Amendment Process [B P]

America does not permit amendments to its Constitution proper [P], nor to its Criminal Code. [P]

The Monarch alone [P] can amend only America’s Code of Use [P]. Usage amendments must be germane to the code and consistent with the principles of this Constitution and America’s Criminal Code. These amendments take effect one year following the day of their promulgation. The Monarch may repeal amendments to restore any previous provision. One month after a repeal judges begin enforcing the exposed provision. Any action in defiance of this Constitution, including an illegal amendment such as one that increases taxes, gives all subjects the responsibility to engage in peaceful civil disobedience against the offense. [P] However the King, as absolute judge, his decisions final even if unjust, can prevail in court against innocents. [P] The King dwells above the jurisdiction of any court in the land. [P] If the Monarch violates this Constitution through wrongful amendments or otherwise, while no American court has standing to prosecute him, he awaits the Judgment Day of God.

Dedication

America hereby dedicates herself to God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit. This Constitution emerges from the principles of justice and governance found within the pages of the Holy Bible and will be superseded by Christ at His return. May God bless our King. Long live the King!

Goriller

Other than the writings of Dr. Stanley Monteith, I don't see much wrong with it.