galiel

St. Robert, meet Amos. Amos, meet St. Robert.

galiel

This is a sincere inquiry and not a flame:
Since you basically acknowledge that great parts of the Bible are human-written fiction (a polite way to say "lie", since it is not presented as fiction), and Christianity derives its fundamental premises from stories that are told in the Bible, what is you basis for being a Christian? I can understand you telling me you believe in God, in a Deist sense, but a Christian? With the holy trinity, Christ's resurection, a believe in a God that responds to individual prayer, in miracles, etc.? Most of the Christians I know are, like you, not fundamentalists, and yet they cling to the tenets of their faith while holding deep internal contradictions. How can you do it? Again, this is a genuine inquiry out of a sincere wish to understand, not to inflame or provoke.

Starboy

If I have criticized HelenM as a person that is wrong, and I do apologize for it. I do not know HelenM so it is hard for me to see how I could have done that in the first place. I have looked at my previous posts on this thread and can’t see where I have done that. Can you please point out to me where this happened? I freely and openly admit to criticizing Christianity, and I expect to do it again. Do not expect me to apologize for this since it is within the purview of this forum, and should be expected by all who visit and post here.

Starboy

agapeo

Oh, nothing in particular. I was just trying to understand what you meant. Even if a typo and you meant to say "a theist" instead of "atheist" it still didn't make sense IMO. But if you don't wish to clarify it for the sake of us non-freethinkers, so be it.

Starboy

Bubba,

I would like that. If there could be such a thing as a freethinking Christian I would say you would definitely qualify. You did not respond with a whine, instead you sincerely considered my arguments.

My hat is off to you. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Starboy

agapeo

Originally posted by Starboy:
Fair enuh.
I suppose it's the "label" thing. Sterotyping individuals by their beliefs or in the case of atheists their "lack of beliefs." It's possible when one has a vendetta/dislike/grudge against a particular position such as religion anyone who is religious can be a target in general.
Can't see where that would matter now. I believe it was originally suggested to you to PM Helen by someone else based on the "tone" of your discourse with her. Perhaps we can take Bubba's idea to heart and go out for some beer and grub instead.
No problemo. Even I, as a Christian, have done likewise. And I'll probably do it again.
The thought never crossed my mind. If I personally can't stand what is being said -- there's a little button at the top of my screen with a X in it. Ya know what that does. Otoh, if I decide to stick around you wouldn't mind if I dish it out as well.

NOGO

NOGO:
One does not believe in God first and as a consequence calls himself atheist because that is what atheist means.

Agapeo:
What the heck does this mean? Unless I'm mistaken one who believes in a deity is a theist, not an atheist.

NOGO:
You are right about the meaning of theist and atheist. Your point being???

Agapeo:
Oh, nothing in particular. I was just trying to understand what you meant. Even if a typo and you meant to say "a theist" instead of "atheist" it still didn't make sense IMO. But if you don't wish to clarify it for the sake of us non-freethinkers, so be it.

NOGO:
Ok I will explain it or perhaps rephrase it.

One begins by not believing in God
and as a consequence
one calls himself an atheist
and that is normal because that is what the word atheist means.

Is that better?

agapeo

Yes! But -- one does not start by "not believing" in God. They start with no belief at all. From there they (whoever) either chooses based on the evidence or lack thereof to believe or not believe.

Starboy

If that is the only complaint, then I say that you are all too thin skinned to be hanging around here. Christians posting here stereotype me as an atheist all the time. The way I respond is not to pout, or whine or get my feelings hurt and cry to mama. If the person I am posting with is ignorant then I freely share my knowledge with them with the hope of disabusing them of any stereotype they may hold about me. If that doesn’t work, well it just confirms my notions about Christians. You want to change my mind about Christians, show some backbone and argue logically for your position. If you can’t support your position with reason then admit it, we can always agree to disagree. Anything less is just an excuse and it would be better if you all just lurked.

Starboy

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

galiel

Mere sophistry. There is no difference between a lack of belief in god or nonbelief in god. The simply point made was that people are born atheistic, that is without the belief in god.

As for "choosing based on the evidence"...actually, most people do *not* sit down at age 4 or 5 with piles of philosophy books and make up their mind--because they are not presented with all options when they are young.

They are born to a family of a particular faith and indoctrinated in that faith (it is a verifiable fact that most people practice the faith of their parents).

By the same token (although I can't cite statistics to back up this assertion), I can certainly provide anecdotal evidence that when children are brought up without indocrtination, are exposed to all faiths and philosophies, and are encouraged to explore and make up their own minds, they tend to become atheists.

It takes an effort to create and maintain a theist, which is the main reason theists resist so vehemently a free modern education and the universal teaching of critical thinking.

That is not a steroetype, it is a definition. Atheism mean lack of belief in god. Theism means belief in god. No stereotype is implied.
You seem determined to create conflict and insult where there is none.