Shadownought

Well, let's assume for the moment that both hell and the typical picture of Yahweh exists. He wants us to have free will to sin and do vile and horrible things to each other, but he doesn't like it when we actually do. He also wants to punish us for doing so by throwing the sinners in hell. Generally, hell is considered some sort of "physical" punishment (like having your legs burned off or whatever).

Wouldn't it make more sense if Yahweh just gave us a little ZAP when we did something he didn't like? People would quickly learn what actions would get them shocked. Most would learn to avoid those actions, and wow, there's a lot less sinnin' going on, and by the sinners' own free will. They could continue to sin if they want, they'll just continue to get doses of divine electricity- so they will most likely stop, by their own choice. It is also, obviously, more merciful than hell: it stops when you quit sinnin', and thus it would be an effective behavior modification tool, unlike hell.

Of course, he would have to drop his silly "not worshipping me is a sin" ideas.

He could also have skipped the punishment step entirely and created us not wanting to sin, but that's beside the point.

Ernest Sparks

Another theory is that God just wants us to want to obey His commandments and is not normally concerned about how much sinning actually goes on. He likes conformity and hates disobedience. But He wants it to be PURE obedience, not conditioned response. Therefore, He neither acts consistently to punish sinners nor reward saints. All rewards for a life are postponed until death. Once in a while, though,he gets totally p***ed off and wreaks havoc, like in the Old Testament.

wildernesse

Don't most people zap themselves when they do something wrong through guilt or regret? And I fail to see how divine lightning would really be much better than observing the consequences of your actions.


--tibac

Shadownought

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Another theory is that God just wants us to want to obey His commandments and is not normally concerned about how much sinning actually goes on. He likes conformity and hates disobedience. But He wants it to be PURE obedience, not conditioned response.

Apparently so, because (in most Christian theologies at least) he gives no opportunity to repent after you're dead; and no matter how much punishment he gives you in hell, it's apparently never enough. The only conclusion is what you just said: he hates disobediance, not sinfulness. If he truly wanted people to change and be good, hell is really a stupid way to do it.

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Therefore, He neither acts consistently to punish sinners nor reward saints. All rewards for a life are postponed until death. Once in a while, though,he gets totally p***ed off and wreaks havoc, like in the Old Testament.

I'm not concerned with rewarding the saints, that can wait til after death if that's what Yahweh wants. It's punishing the sinners that's the problem. It is the same as if, at the first sinful act you commit, he punishes you immediately and eternally- waiting until you die just delays the punishment (which would actually make it LESS effective).

Ultimately, it comes down to, "What does Yahweh want from us?"

It's not. It's better than eternal hellfire that will accomplish nothing at all. Do you agree, then, that Yahweh's Afterlife O' Pain is essentially meaningless- after all, people burn themselves with guilt or regret when they do something wrong, don't they?

atheist_in_foxhole

I don't know about you folks but I am MUCH more worried about going to Islamic hell. Christian hell seems rather tame by comparison. Did you know that people in Islamic hell get their skin burned off and are forced to drink boiling water? Yikes!

Amos

If salvation is for sinners only = salvation is the "punishment" for sin . . . and heaven is the reward for sinners where they can enjoy the fruits of their "good works."

Shadownought

Another thing: why can't this "zap" BE guilt and regret? Obviously, not everyone feels guilt for the same things, and some people feel guilty when they shouldn't. Why doesn't Yahweh send those feelings of guilt to all humans to accompany their sinful actions, and only their sinful action? The "divine electricity" was just a broad statement- god-instilled guilt is just as good. If you think that guilt is a good way to tell if something's sinful or not, you should agree that Yahweh could be doing a better job of handling it.

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I don't know about you folks but I am MUCH more worried about going to Islamic hell. Christian hell seems rather tame by comparison. Did you know that people in Islamic hell get their skin burned off and are forced to drink boiling water? Yikes!

Boiling water? Hey, Ash did it in Army of Darkness...

winstonjen

There's the kicker - the Xian 'god' is depicted as jealous and vengeful, yet gets pissed off if we are jealous or vengeful.

Sinners going to hell - so much for loving your enemy.

Nice topic, BTW, Shadownought.

Shake

40 lashes with a wet noodle!!!

Ernest Sparks

To express my point more forcefully: sin IS disobedience. Killing, robbing, raping, etc. aren't sinful in themselves; they are sinful because they are acts of disobedience. To sustain a notion of divine justice, it is necessary to believe concurrently that everyone REALLY knows when they have sinned this way. This means believing everyone really KNOWS in their heart that God is there and has issued commandments about these things. The apparent arbitrariness of death time requires in addition some kind of particular judgement on each life.

The Mormons hold out for the possibility of getting another chance in the spirit world. Proxy baptism in their church is to secure reunion of families in the Celestial Kingdom; otherwise a person saved after death has to go to one of the inferior kingdoms of glory, and is separated from the family.