Malcolm

X-xian,

Thank you for being so open and honest in all your posts here, I appreciate that and I feel for you very much in your whole situation.

My one comment to make is: Divorce Really Stinks.

There are so many reasons to get divorced, and maybe you will end up there. I have been separated for nearly a year now and divorced since July. I also have 3 children and have watched them from birth (delivered two myself) through to the marvellous young adults that they are now. Our reasons for divorce were because of affairs - my wife's was physical, mine emotional. I think that in the long run it will be for the best, but the last 12 months have been by far the worst of my life. I know that the kids have suffered as well - my oldest is having counselling and taking antidepressants, and the younger two struggle from time to time. Our problem was that we didn't love each other any more - you and your wife still seem to have that love for each other. My strong advice is to go to professional marriage counselling (as others have suggested), read Helen's book, and do your best to work it out. You will need to compromise and so will she, but please don't get carried away in the heat of a debate and walk out in a huff. The implications are far too deep.

Regards, Malcolm

HelenM

It wouldn't be ok to disrupt people in the midst of worshipping - I agree. But I don't think x-xian meant he intended to disrupt the church services or classes with questions/challenges.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking someone before or after the service whether you could talk to them about the Bible. And if they are willing, then you see when it's convenient for both of you to have that conversation, if right then is not a good time. I expect there are some people at most churches who are quite willing to discuss the Bible. At least for a while...

It's hard to predict how x-xian's wife would feel about him discussing his objections to Christianity/the Bible with other Christians. She might be in favor of it if she thinks it's going to lead him back to Christianity.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

Damn I'm tired of this roller coaster ride!!

Tonight I came home from work and could see that there was clearly something troubling my wife. We went into a room by ourselves, and I asked what was wrong.

She had talked to one of her best friends who lives in Missouri about our problems. I knew immediately where she was going, and I said, "So we're back to this." That pissed her off. "I told you what was wrong, and if it involves you, you don't want to hear it!!" No, I said, this is something we've already hashed out several times and I am tired of talking about it. It doesn't matter, she says. It all "makes her sad."

Is it SO HARD to believe that I could be anything but MISERABLE because I don't believe in HER GOD????

Her thinking I'm just "going through a phase" also pisses ME off. Am I reduced to the level of a child simply because I've given up believing in what I consider a FARCE?? A SHAM?? A JOKE that people hide behind and use as an excuse to wield power over OTHERS??

How I envy you, outtawork. To come home and find my wife reading something that made SENSE would be a "blessing" (sarcasm intended). However, I don't think she wants to even consider a world with no God. Well, her Christian upbringing has certainly done its job, frightening her into believing NO MATTER WHAT.

Someone said I shouldn't go into the new church and be disruptive. Is asking questions considered disruptive? I know what response I'm going to get, the standard "We can't know what God's plan is....." That isn't an answer. That's the same as a parent saying "Just because I told you so." Day after day I am presented with evidence against a God up there, patrolling his flawed creation.

Well, I'm not sure what else to say. Yes, part of me realizes that I have sprung this on my poor wife. And she doesn't know what to think. But, I hate that she absolutely will not even CONSIDER my perspective. I "need help," according to her, because my brain has become "twisted." If this is twisted, let's go another 360 degrees!!

Why is it a crime to use reason and logic to think about the status quo? It seems like that's how my wife and all of her "Christian" buddies look at it. Why are people so afraid to step out of their tiny little brain boxes and really evaluate the evidence?? I guess it's easier to go along with the crowd.

I'll stop for now.

Darren

Vicar Philip

To brettc:

I hope you don't think I'm ignoring you. You are in a similar situation, and I wonder about a few things.

Do you also find yourself talking to a brick wall when you explain why you feel the way you do? Do you get absolutely nothing back but a sad, knowing, shake of the head back and forth? Damn I get tired of that. She takes such pity on the heathen I've become!

I hate the Divorce threat. It has no place in a marriage. I just don't know how to deal with it.

Have you and your wife gone to a counselor? If so, was it a Christian counselor? I've had a couple recommended to me by friends, but they're all Christians. So we all know who's side they'll be on. If you haven't gone to counseling, do you plan to?

Darren

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: x-xian ]</p>

HelenM

Darren have you tried contacting <a href="http://www.prairienet.org/family-service/aboutus.html" target="_blank">Family Service of Champaign County, Illinois</a>?

I expect you could tell them you're looking for a secular/non-Christian counselor. It doesn't appear that they are a Christian organization - unless they are being very covert about it...

take care
Helen

Rhea

Darren, it sounds like you're facing a lot of frustration. But may I advise...

Take some time for yourself, by yourself.

Ask yourself what is your main goal. And the second goal. It sounds like you love your wife, your children and your marriage.

IMO, IMVHO, it sounds like you are not working toward your own goal. Being confrontational does nothing positive. Nothing. Please consioder this. I would hate to see you throw away years of love and commitment over a disagreement resolved wrong because it was resolved too fast.

The advise to say "divorce is out of the question for 12 months" is good advice, IMO.

Do you think your confrontations are proving to your wife that you are still the same loving guy? Honest? ASk yourself. Don't you _want_ her to know you're the same loving guy?

Ask yourself if you are willing to drive toward divorce. That's what your confrontation and your lack of respect for her beliefs is doing. "Sham" "Lie", all those words look like the pain of your deconversion. But they are not her fault. Don't make them her fault.

LOVE HER!!!!

Aren't you still a good guy? If you want your marriage, I would say (for me) yes it WOULD be worth shutting up for a short period, going with her like a parent chauffering a child to their play, showering her with love and tolerance while you complete your deconversion.

Don't expect her to go through your pain of your deconversion. That is too much to ask. (NOTE: Apply double standard here. Expect more from yourself than you do from others) Complete your deconversion without making her experience every phase of it.

Your replies show a lot of confrontation & anger - don't think she doesn't see it. She does not see the nice guy she married (methinks).

Is that your intent? Do you want divorce?

If you don't, you have to commit yourself to relationship-building and leave the religion out of it. What's so harmful to you to cherish your wife and respect her needs? Yes, it's her need. Think of it that way. How many other things do you do for her that is only because you are showing love and participating in something that you would never do yourself. Shop? Play bridge with neighbors? Watch football?

Sorry to be so harsh, but your posts indicate you really do value this marriage, but it sounds like your emotions are going to let it get away from you. That would be immeasurably sad.

The salvation of your kids will not be decided this week. You can hold off on sharing your beliefs for a month and probably never change the eventual outcome. Your deconversion will not be halted by your focusing less on it for a week. Don't fear you're going to "go back". That's not really realistic.

Work on your marriage this week. Not your deconversion, nor the deconversion of your kids or your wife. That's my advice. Work on your marriage through love, tolerance, compromise & reflection of the future.

A wise Atheist here once said, "try the Pagan approach - bring her gifts, make sacrifices and treat her like a goddess". I think that's great advice. Start with flowers. TONIGHT.

Good luck.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Rhea ]</p>

Vicar Philip

Rhea,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. You are right, I've been thinking of my wife as more of an ADVERSARY than the smart, beautiful, funny woman that I married 15 years ago.

The problem is, she knows, she KNOWS, that I don't believe in God. In her mind, she can't be married to a non-Christian. Of course I still treat her nicely, and tell her I love her. But we always have this tension just under the surface. How am I supposed to make THAT better? The only way to do so would be to tell her that I do believe in God after all, and that would be dishonest.

She tells me that I am "denying God," and that since I deny God I think I am better than God. I told her that makes no sense, but it falls on deaf ears.

So how exactly am I supposed to make her feel better about my "painful" deconversion (I assume you meant painful for her; I feel great)? As I said, the only way she claims she'll feel I'm still "me" is if I believe in God. Am I to lie and say Yes, I now believe??

Darren

BadBadBad

Darren,

I don't have an agenda to convert my wife. I just want her to leave me alone about religion, and not try to put herself above me in our relationship. She's the chosen godly one, and I'm the pitiful heathen holding our family back from leading a happy christian church life. If she'd stop doing that and dragging our kids to church teaching them to be just like her, I wouldn't have a word to say about religion.

I got tired of that though, and now I've educated myself. Now I can defend myself against those authoritative and righteous comments. It's very costly for her to go down that road anymore. She tries to put up her brick wall, but christianity isn't such a firm wall to hide behind. She has to be careful about throwing rocks. Her phantom rocks are easily blocked by logic, but the farse of christianity has no defense. All of the sudden, she doesn't want to talk about religion anymore. When she does, I push back really hard. I always remind her that she was the one who continues to push this.

As far as the divorce thing, I'm not sure I've licked her using that as a weapon in every major conflict. I did get her to back down on divorce being an answer over this conflict. Especially with the conflict over religion. I think it was Helen's comments about a womens role that helped. Helen, what were those verses? It's incredibly hypocritical for her to want to divorce you over your rejection of the Bible, when she rejects it herself. Focus on learning the women's role in the Bible, and let that be your main defense.

As far as counselling, I don't have much confidence in it. My experience in another relationship was that it drove us more apart than bringing us together. Perhaps it was just the counsellor. I've read a couple of books on that. What I've read is to focus on what you bring to the table. Focus on what you're doing right or wrong. Be the best you can be to her. Then at some point decide if she's willing to bring enough to the table to make the relationship worthwhile for you. Easy to say, hard to do!

How long has this conflict been going on with your wife? Mine's been going on in the background for about three years. It's been much more out in the open since about April of this year. It just goes to show you that this shouldn't be the end of the world.

HelenM

Are these the ones I gave you, Brett?

<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+peter+3%3A1-6&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=12&y=8" target="_blank">1 Peter 3:1-6</a> is about the wife’s submissiveness and demeanor with an unbelieving husband.

<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+cor7%3A10-16&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=7&y=11" target="_blank">1 Cor 7:10-16</a> says a wife may not get a divorce just because her husband isn’t a believer.

<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Eph+5%3A22-24&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=18&y=11" target="_blank">Eph 5:22-24</a> is about wives being submissive to their husbands.

A conservative church would say that a wife must obey what these passages say; that to do otherwise is sinful. Including the passage where [allegedly] Paul wrote “I, not the Lord [say this]” – because it’s in the Bible so it counts as the Word of God, as far as they are concerned.

(However, a reasonable conservative church would never endanger a wife though; they would encourage a wife to remove herself from an abusive situation; they would consider her circumstances in applying these verses)

take care
Helen

Aerion

Rhea is correct that you have to be non-confrontational. You have to reassure her that she is free to go on believing whatever she wants. You have to reasssure her that you still respect her beliefs. You might also reassure her that your basic moral principles haven't changed. You might also tell a little white lie and tell her that you still believe it is remotely possible God exists.

The important thing is to show respect for her beliefs.

It is also possible that your wife will never accept your change in faith. According to the Christian church, not believing in God makes you a heretic and guilty of the worst possible sin in the eyes of God. Sad but true; the guys that flew airplanes into the WTC are less sinners than an Atheist in the eyes of the church. It is possible your wife will never see beyond that.