Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Alonzo Fyfe · 08-03-2002, 08:05 PM

In case people may find some use for these, I have to arguments that I have been putting into effects in debates about Church/State separation.

The Christian Heritage Argument

It is interesting to note that nowhere in Christianity before 1776 had there ever been a democratic or republican government.

The concept of a democracy came from ancient Greece -- a Pagan nation, under Zeus.

A republic? That idea came from the Romans before Ceaser. Before Christ. While the Romans were worshipping a pantheon under Jupiter.

This country was NOT founded on Christian principles. It was founded on the PAGAN principles of democratic and republic government, from ancient Greece and Rome.

Because nowhere in all of Christianity was there a model for democratic or republican government.

The Better Christian Argument

The atheist says that government should not have "under God" in the pledge.

Ask the atheist if he does unto others what he would have them do unto him. "You want others who believe in God to refrain from adding 'under God' to the Pledge. If you were in power, would you be willing to suffer the same limitation and not add "whose decent citizens do not believe in God' or any similarly-meaning text to the pledge?"

The atheist says, 'Yes, I would. The government ought not to belittle the peaceful beliefs of any citizen. It does me no injury that my neighbor believes in 1 god or many gods; and so the government should say nothing against him."

Atheists follow the principle, 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'

The theist wants 'under God' to remain.

To the theist, ask, 'If the atheists were in power, would you allow and encourage them to modify the pledge with the phrase, '...whose decent citizens do not believe in God...?' Would you argue that they should impose such a phrase on you?'

The theist says NO!

The theist advocates actions that they WOULD NOT have others do unto them.

The atheist makes the better Christian.

How ironic.

Vorkosigan · 08-04-2002, 12:50 AM

"It is interesting to note that nowhere in Christianity before 1776 had there ever been a democratic or republican government."

Swiss????

Buffman · 08-04-2002, 02:19 AM

This is some truly fun reading when you consider how the European Christians viewed the North American Savages(?)

<a href="http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/</a>

<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.html" target="_blank">http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.html</a>

<a href="http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html</a>

<a href="http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/." target="_blank">http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/.</a>

Bokonon · 08-04-2002, 04:19 AM

England and Holland had systems that vaguely resembled what we'd call a democracy. Sure they had a king, but they had elected officials.

Grumpy · 08-04-2002, 10:02 AM

True, Bokonon, but not for a thousand years after the advent of Christianity. (Or less, given the time it took to spread to those parts of Europe.)

RichardMorey · 08-04-2002, 06:56 PM

It is not entirely accurate to say that the US Constitution is based on ideas that were not existant in 'Christian' nations. England had the largest impact on the Americans, and there were more than hints in the English government of the American government to come.
The Magna Carta, for instance, had a huge influence. And the Parliamentary system, also. The government of the United States was such a mishmash of ideas, really. Certainly many of the ideas came from Christian nations.
Their ideas about the Greeks and Romans were largely idealizations and mostly wrong.
For more, read "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution" by Bernard Bailyn.

Buffman · 08-04-2002, 07:21 PM

Get the soft-cover, enlarged, edition. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass./London, England,1992. This is the 25th Anniversary Edition of the 1967 original edition. With his 1967 edition, Bailyn won his first, of two, Pulitzer Prizes for History.---He added a 58 page Postscript ("Fulfillment: A Commentary On the Constitution") to this anniversary edition.

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Toto · 08-04-2002, 07:34 PM

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674443020/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution</a> by Bernard Bailyn

Waning Moon Conrad · 08-05-2002, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
"It is interesting to note that nowhere in Christianity before 1776 had there ever been a democratic or republican government."

Swiss????

Iceland! Christianized in about the 1100's and the world's oldest democracy!

But please may America have the good sense to keep "under God" offthe pledge even if it don't have the sense to abolish it all together!

d'naturalist · 08-05-2002, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Waning Moon Conrad:
Iceland! Christianized in about the 1100's and the world's oldest democracy!

If I'm not mistaken (which happens from time to time), the Althing (Iceland's "Parliament") was created by the pagan leaders close to 100 years before the conversion to Christianity. The Norse had a form of participatory democracy long before even then, the Earls & Freemen gathering at the tribal "thing" to vote on whatever needed voting on.

08-03-2002, 08:05 PM	#1
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	2 More Arguments In case people may find some use for these, I have to arguments that I have been putting into effects in debates about Church/State separation. The Christian Heritage Argument It is interesting to note that nowhere in Christianity before 1776 had there ever been a democratic or republican government. The concept of a democracy came from ancient Greece -- a Pagan nation, under Zeus. A republic? That idea came from the Romans before Ceaser. Before Christ. While the Romans were worshipping a pantheon under Jupiter. This country was NOT founded on Christian principles. It was founded on the PAGAN principles of democratic and republic government, from ancient Greece and Rome. Because nowhere in all of Christianity was there a model for democratic or republican government. The Better Christian Argument The atheist says that government should not have "under God" in the pledge. Ask the atheist if he does unto others what he would have them do unto him. "You want others who believe in God to refrain from adding 'under God' to the Pledge. If you were in power, would you be willing to suffer the same limitation and not add "whose decent citizens do not believe in God' or any similarly-meaning text to the pledge?" The atheist says, 'Yes, I would. The government ought not to belittle the peaceful beliefs of any citizen. It does me no injury that my neighbor believes in 1 god or many gods; and so the government should say nothing against him." Atheists follow the principle, 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The theist wants 'under God' to remain. To the theist, ask, 'If the atheists were in power, would you allow and encourage them to modify the pledge with the phrase, '...whose decent citizens do not believe in God...?' Would you argue that they should impose such a phrase on you?' The theist says NO! The theist advocates actions that they WOULD NOT have others do unto them. The atheist makes the better Christian. How ironic.

08-04-2002, 07:21 PM	#7
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Get the soft-cover, enlarged, edition. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass./London, England,1992. This is the 25th Anniversary Edition of the 1967 original edition. With his 1967 edition, Bailyn won his first, of two, Pulitzer Prizes for History.---He added a 58 page Postscript ("Fulfillment: A Commentary On the Constitution") to this anniversary edition. [ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

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08-04-2002, 12:50 AM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	"It is interesting to note that nowhere in Christianity before 1776 had there ever been a democratic or republican government." Swiss????

08-04-2002, 02:19 AM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	This is some truly fun reading when you consider how the European Christians viewed the North American Savages(?) <a href="http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/</a> <a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.html" target="_blank">http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/iroquois.html</a> <a href="http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html</a> <a href="http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/." target="_blank">http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/.</a>

08-04-2002, 04:19 AM	#4
Bokonon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Left of the Mississippi Posts: 138	England and Holland had systems that vaguely resembled what we'd call a democracy. Sure they had a king, but they had elected officials.

08-04-2002, 10:02 AM	#5
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	True, Bokonon, but not for a thousand years after the advent of Christianity. (Or less, given the time it took to spread to those parts of Europe.)

08-04-2002, 06:56 PM	#6
RichardMorey Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Missouri Posts: 112	It is not entirely accurate to say that the US Constitution is based on ideas that were not existant in 'Christian' nations. England had the largest impact on the Americans, and there were more than hints in the English government of the American government to come. The Magna Carta, for instance, had a huge influence. And the Parliamentary system, also. The government of the United States was such a mishmash of ideas, really. Certainly many of the ideas came from Christian nations. Their ideas about the Greeks and Romans were largely idealizations and mostly wrong. For more, read "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution" by Bernard Bailyn.

08-04-2002, 07:34 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674443020/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution</a> by Bernard Bailyn

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