Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bob K · 08-02-2003, 06:33 AM

Challenge: What would serve as proof of the existence of gods?

How could we test the hypothesis that a thing claiming to be a god is really a god? What would we expect to be its characteristics?

Would it have more knowledge than humans individually or collectively?

Would it have more capabilities for using that knowledge than humans individually or collectively?

Would the characteristics of having more knowledge and capabilities for using that knowledge be enough for proof of the existence of a god?

What about immortality? Would we expect/demand that it be immortal?

What if it were more knowledgeable/powerful but was mortal? Would it still be a god? If we could kill it, would it still be a god?

What if it were mortal and produced new gods by reproduction of some kind (details are not important herein)? Would it still be a god?

What if it were mortal, and only a little more knowledgeable/powerful than humans individually? Kinda-sorta like a super-human, but more in the sense of a superior human? Would it still be god?

Would we worship gods that were mortal and only slightly more knowledgeable/powerful than individual humans?

How would we worship them (what specifically would we do)? For what purpose would we worship them if they were only slightly more knowledgeable/powerful than humans? Their ability and willingness to kick human ass up and down Main Street all day long and all night long, too, might be good reason to give them their due--whatever that might be. But what if they were mortal and we could kill them to keep them from kicking our asses individually/collectively up and down Main Street? Would we kill them and eliminate the ass-kicking?

Without standards for the perception, evaluation, and analysis of gods, without an expectation of the characteristics of gods, we might not be able to perceive/evaluate/analyze a god if it appeared to us or if we captured one.

So, what would be the characteristics of gods and what would be the proof of the existence of gods?

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-02-2003, 07:34 AM

Nothing. Fictional creatures don't factually exist (i.e., are non-fictional).

At best we would be dealing with extra-terrestrial, more-technologically-advanced-than-we beings.

IoftheBholder · 08-02-2003, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob K
What if it were mortal, and only a little more knowledgeable/powerful than humans individually? Kinda-sorta like a super-human, but more in the sense of a superior human? Would it still be god?

Bob K, from personal experience, the answer seems to be no.

But seriously, I like this thought experiment. I think what you are getting at is that the characteristics often attributed to god(s) would be difficult to prove in the first place. So we are left with the "know it when I see it" problem.

To me the simplest answer is that god(s) is/are supernatural. They are usually attributed with powers that exceed natural laws. Hence, maybe it's not a god unless it can bend a spoon with it's mind. Or some other trick that demonstrates not being fettered by petty natural laws.

i!

Godless Wonder · 08-02-2003, 08:03 AM

Well, lets see, he should be immortal, for starters.

God: "I am god."

Human: Really? You look like a normal human to me, May I test your assertion?

God: Sure, what'd you have in mind?

Human: Here, hold this hydrogen bomb.
(backs waaaay off, peers at god holding bomb
through protective lenses, sets up cameras, etc.
and detonates the bomb.

The bomb goes off in a blinding flash, releasing a whole lot of energy in accordance with E = mc^2. God simply clamps his hands around the supersonically expanding nuclear fireball, compresses it back into the shape of a bomb and puts the bomb back ogether again in perfect working order, just like it was nothing.

God "Anything else?"

That would be pretty damned impresseve.

sophie · 08-02-2003, 08:23 AM

Quote:

What about immortality? Would we expect/demand that it be immortal?

How many billions of experiences would we need to capture this with real understanding?

Godless Wonder · 08-02-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sophie
How many billions of experiences would we need to capture this with real understanding?

Good point. God would become a kind of "ultimate jackass", constantly subjecting himself to more astonishing tests. Finally, a reality tv show I would watch!

DOLBAC DENIS · 08-02-2003, 10:30 AM

Just one small miracle, like grow a leg to a cul de jatte.
So simple, so easy for a god, no more discussion, we would all believe, I mean we the convinced atheists.

Tenpudo · 08-04-2003, 06:59 AM

Any being *great* enough to actually merit worship wouldn't want it.

Arken · 08-04-2003, 07:38 AM

Tenpudo, I don't think that power and ego are always mutually exclusive... although a being that is also omniscient would already know who would and wouldn't worship him and know that there was nothing he could do about it because it was all set in stone from the beginning...

I think the whole 'defying the laws of physics' thing is the best way for a god to prove himself... Bending a spoon with the mind is not exactly what I would have in mind though. I would suggest something like causing the skeptic to coexist in two places at once with dual consciousness and awareness or something... of course, the easiest test would be, "if you're an all-powerful being, make me believe you're an all-powerful being." Being omnipotent, this shouldn't be difficult.

emotional · 08-04-2003, 08:57 AM

In other words, you're all expecting miracles of the Biblical kind as proof of God.

Yet you reject what is written in the Bible. OK, so the Bible is past, and you need a miracle now. But I can only guess what would happen if such came to pass: you'd all go CSICOP on the miracle. Randi would be ready with a handy refutation. Even God wouldn't be able to collect under Randi's Paranormal Challenge. It's a no-win situation.

I believe it is not in God's character to ever change natural laws. He did not, does not and never will perform miracles. There cannot be, by definition, evidence or proof of God, since He cannot be put in a test tube. All debates about God's existence are futile.

08-02-2003, 06:33 AM	#1
Bob K Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Durham, NH USA Posts: 5,933	Challenge: What would serve as proof of the existence of gods? Challenge: What would serve as proof of the existence of gods? How could we test the hypothesis that a thing claiming to be a god is really a god? What would we expect to be its characteristics? Would it have more knowledge than humans individually or collectively? Would it have more capabilities for using that knowledge than humans individually or collectively? Would the characteristics of having more knowledge and capabilities for using that knowledge be enough for proof of the existence of a god? What about immortality? Would we expect/demand that it be immortal? What if it were more knowledgeable/powerful but was mortal? Would it still be a god? If we could kill it, would it still be a god? What if it were mortal and produced new gods by reproduction of some kind (details are not important herein)? Would it still be a god? What if it were mortal, and only a little more knowledgeable/powerful than humans individually? Kinda-sorta like a super-human, but more in the sense of a superior human? Would it still be god? Would we worship gods that were mortal and only slightly more knowledgeable/powerful than individual humans? How would we worship them (what specifically would we do)? For what purpose would we worship them if they were only slightly more knowledgeable/powerful than humans? Their ability and willingness to kick human ass up and down Main Street all day long and all night long, too, might be good reason to give them their due--whatever that might be. But what if they were mortal and we could kill them to keep them from kicking our asses individually/collectively up and down Main Street? Would we kill them and eliminate the ass-kicking? Without standards for the perception, evaluation, and analysis of gods, without an expectation of the characteristics of gods, we might not be able to perceive/evaluate/analyze a god if it appeared to us or if we captured one. So, what would be the characteristics of gods and what would be the proof of the existence of gods?

08-02-2003, 10:30 AM	#7
DOLBAC DENIS Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE PARIS Posts: 19	Proof of the existence of god Just one small miracle, like grow a leg to a cul de jatte. So simple, so easy for a god, no more discussion, we would all believe, I mean we the convinced atheists.

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08-02-2003, 07:34 AM	#2
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Nothing. Fictional creatures don't factually exist (i.e., are non-fictional). At best we would be dealing with extra-terrestrial, more-technologically-advanced-than-we beings.

08-02-2003, 08:03 AM	#4
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	Well, lets see, he should be immortal, for starters. God: "I am god." Human: Really? You look like a normal human to me, May I test your assertion? God: Sure, what'd you have in mind? Human: Here, hold this hydrogen bomb. (backs waaaay off, peers at god holding bomb through protective lenses, sets up cameras, etc. and detonates the bomb. The bomb goes off in a blinding flash, releasing a whole lot of energy in accordance with E = mc^2. God simply clamps his hands around the supersonically expanding nuclear fireball, compresses it back into the shape of a bomb and puts the bomb back ogether again in perfect working order, just like it was nothing. God "Anything else?" That would be pretty damned impresseve.

08-04-2003, 06:59 AM	#8
Tenpudo Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Bellingham WA Posts: 219	Any being great enough to actually merit worship wouldn't want it.

08-04-2003, 07:38 AM	#9
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	Tenpudo, I don't think that power and ego are always mutually exclusive... although a being that is also omniscient would already know who would and wouldn't worship him and know that there was nothing he could do about it because it was all set in stone from the beginning... I think the whole 'defying the laws of physics' thing is the best way for a god to prove himself... Bending a spoon with the mind is not exactly what I would have in mind though. I would suggest something like causing the skeptic to coexist in two places at once with dual consciousness and awareness or something... of course, the easiest test would be, "if you're an all-powerful being, make me believe you're an all-powerful being." Being omnipotent, this shouldn't be difficult.

08-04-2003, 08:57 AM	#10
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	In other words, you're all expecting miracles of the Biblical kind as proof of God. Yet you reject what is written in the Bible. OK, so the Bible is past, and you need a miracle now. But I can only guess what would happen if such came to pass: you'd all go CSICOP on the miracle. Randi would be ready with a handy refutation. Even God wouldn't be able to collect under Randi's Paranormal Challenge. It's a no-win situation. I believe it is not in God's character to ever change natural laws. He did not, does not and never will perform miracles. There cannot be, by definition, evidence or proof of God, since He cannot be put in a test tube. All debates about God's existence are futile.

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