Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richard1366 · 06-27-2002, 04:31 AM

I just copied the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to my word processor and did a search for the word "god."

The only reference is in the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence where it refers to the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."

Although the Declaration pronounced our Independence from England, the Constitution and Bill of Rights is what our country was built on, not a single reference to any "god" in either of them.

Writer@Large · 06-27-2002, 05:52 AM

It amuses me what people have been reaching for the last 24 hours to prove our country's supposed basis in God. Senator Byrd (I think) even said that that judge should "go back and read the Mayflower Compact" if he didn't believe this was a Xian nation. I mean, WTF?!?!? The Compact also opens with:

"We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king [...]"

Does this mean, then, that America is really a British nation, too? Fer Crissakes!

--W@L

queue · 06-27-2002, 07:44 AM

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that the Declaration of Independence was just that. A paper saying why the colonies were seperating from English rule. It did not set up the government of the US nor can it be used as a legal document in a court case (except as a reference of why the colonies seperated from English rule).

The Constitution is the document that set up the government of the US and can be used as a legal document in court cases.

If this is correct, then it does not legally matter that the Declaration of Independence has the word god in it. The Constitution is the document that matters.

hezekiah jones · 06-27-2002, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by queue:
If this is correct, then it does not legally matter that the Declaration of Independence has the word god in it. The Constitution is the document that matters.

That's true but the courts can and do refer to the DoI and other documents in support of their argument from historical context (Rehnquist does it all the time) which seems to be the prevailing opinion against the 9th Circuit that is floating around right now.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: hezekiah jones ]</p>

pragma · 06-27-2002, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard1366:
<strong>I just copied the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to my word processor and did a search for the word "god."

The only reference is in the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence where it refers to the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."

Although the Declaration pronounced our Independence from England, the Constitution and Bill of Rights is what our country was built on, not a single reference to any "god" in either of them.</strong>

There's also the famous quote:

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

...from the Declaration of Independence. Obviously "Creator" refers back to "Nature's God" in this context.

Determining what the U.S. was "built on" is not necessarily a simple, clear-cut issue. I would say though that the idea of natural individual rights is a cornerstone of the United States, and that the signers of the Declaration of Independence agreed that the basis of those rights is their Creator, or "God".

Since a large number of the founders were Deists, the "God" referred to shouldn't be assumed to be the Christian God. The specific language "Nature's God" also suggests a more Deistic concept of God was intended.

Jamie_L · 06-27-2002, 08:43 AM

Whether or not the founders believed rights ultimately were owed to a supernatural force, the fact is the Constitution explicitly placed power in the hands of the people, and set up legal rights that defined how the people and the government would interact. God was implicitly left out of that compact by omission, and explicitly excluded by the First Amendment.

It is possible to believe in a higher power and also believe that higher power has no business being entangled in government. The religious leanings of the founders is irrelevant - only their views on how that faith (or lack thereof) should interact with government is relevant.

If these guys all agreed that a U.S. theocracy was a good idea, wouldn't they have spelled it out a little more clearly? Like, at all?

Jamie

queue · 06-27-2002, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by hezekiah jones:

Quote:

That's true but the courts can and do refer to the DoI and other documents in support of their argument from historical context (Rehnquist does it all the time) which seems to be the prevailing opinion against the 9th Circuit that is floating around right now.

Okay, that makes sense. I normally do not read SCOTUS rulings.

I guess that the Treaty of Tripoli is just not a good historical document.

gilly54 · 06-27-2002, 09:56 AM

Regarding the authors of the Constitution: Using the words "their Creator" was a masterful way of allowing anyone to individually determine who they wanted their "Creator" to be.

Have their been any SCt decisions stating that the Creator is the J/C god? No? Then the bawling Christians haven't a legal leg to stand on!

Gilly

uhcord · 06-27-2002, 09:59 AM

I always thought when they referred to creator they meant Earth.

Toto · 06-27-2002, 10:22 AM

The "Creator" is "Nature's God" or the god of Deism, or "natural religion", which was popular around the time the DoI was written but now sounds rather quaint. Some courts have upheld references to God on money and in public ceremonies as "ceremonial Deism". The idea is that you can use your own concept of god / God / Nature / the Force / your own "higher power" / whatever.

06-27-2002, 04:31 AM	#1
Richard1366 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,260	"God" in our Historical Documents I just copied the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to my word processor and did a search for the word "god." The only reference is in the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence where it refers to the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." Although the Declaration pronounced our Independence from England, the Constitution and Bill of Rights is what our country was built on, not a single reference to any "god" in either of them.

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06-27-2002, 05:52 AM	#2
Writer@Large Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 7,198	It amuses me what people have been reaching for the last 24 hours to prove our country's supposed basis in God. Senator Byrd (I think) even said that that judge should "go back and read the Mayflower Compact" if he didn't believe this was a Xian nation. I mean, WTF?!?!? The Compact also opens with: "We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king [...]" Does this mean, then, that America is really a British nation, too? Fer Crissakes! --W@L

06-27-2002, 07:44 AM	#3
queue Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 368	Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that the Declaration of Independence was just that. A paper saying why the colonies were seperating from English rule. It did not set up the government of the US nor can it be used as a legal document in a court case (except as a reference of why the colonies seperated from English rule). The Constitution is the document that set up the government of the US and can be used as a legal document in court cases. If this is correct, then it does not legally matter that the Declaration of Independence has the word god in it. The Constitution is the document that matters.

06-27-2002, 08:43 AM	#6
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Whether or not the founders believed rights ultimately were owed to a supernatural force, the fact is the Constitution explicitly placed power in the hands of the people, and set up legal rights that defined how the people and the government would interact. God was implicitly left out of that compact by omission, and explicitly excluded by the First Amendment. It is possible to believe in a higher power and also believe that higher power has no business being entangled in government. The religious leanings of the founders is irrelevant - only their views on how that faith (or lack thereof) should interact with government is relevant. If these guys all agreed that a U.S. theocracy was a good idea, wouldn't they have spelled it out a little more clearly? Like, at all? Jamie

06-27-2002, 09:56 AM	#8
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	Regarding the authors of the Constitution: Using the words "their Creator" was a masterful way of allowing anyone to individually determine who they wanted their "Creator" to be. Have their been any SCt decisions stating that the Creator is the J/C god? No? Then the bawling Christians haven't a legal leg to stand on! Gilly

06-27-2002, 09:59 AM	#9
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	I always thought when they referred to creator they meant Earth.

06-27-2002, 10:22 AM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The "Creator" is "Nature's God" or the god of Deism, or "natural religion", which was popular around the time the DoI was written but now sounds rather quaint. Some courts have upheld references to God on money and in public ceremonies as "ceremonial Deism". The idea is that you can use your own concept of god / God / Nature / the Force / your own "higher power" / whatever.

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