chimaira

Hello to all, this is for a piece of information...

John ch 8 v 58: Jésus says for them: In truth, in truth, I say it for you, before abraham fût, I am

I heard somewhere that "I am" in the Greek texts read themselves to the present, therefore I was, can have to confirm me this or to invalidate it for me, I you tanks for your responses....

CX

I'm not sure what the question is. The Greek reads EGW EIMI which is present tense; "I am".

chimaira

Thank-you cx for information, my question was if the passage of John read himself to the present or to the passed in the first copies greek, thank you .

Volker.Doormann

Hi Chimaira,

I think, this speaking in a present form is a hidden hint to understand the difference between of the spiritual laws and the physical laws. As the consciousness of the Pharisees is aligned to a linear time line, the figure Jesus as of a spiritual consciousness is aware about his eternal existence, in that the time dependent process of a continuously changing body of atoms over time from a baby to a an old body is of no meaning. This difference in the consciousness is dramatized in this part of the gosple:

"The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh ; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. "

It is still the consciousness of the soul, which is immortal and unchanged by time from which Jesus is arguing, and because a soul is of eternal life, he said this to them, who are only aware of their physical life as mortal body, but not as eternal soul. A physical consciousness is not able to discover a spiritual consciousness, and from this they are not able to follow him to his spiritual consciousness, they can only attack his body. 'I am' means, that 'I am ever' with an consciousness that is in every present, also in that present of the time of Abraham physical life (if there was really a historic Abraham). This 'I am' consciousness is the eternal consciousnes of the soul, which is immortal. And this eternal consciousness is meant with his 'he shall never see death', equal to the first words in the Gospel of Thomas.

Volker

chimaira

Hello volker, in fact have you reason I had not thought has this hypothesis before your intervention, this is therefore to meditate I think and in truth the people are used to declare something as true before having ripely reflects over, thank-you volker