Non-praying Mantis

...approximately.

Actually I wanted to start this thread based upon something that Vanderzyden said in another thread:

</strong>

If you are not "afraid" of having your physical frame "derived directly from an ape prototype," then do you have any problems with saying:

My x-great-grandfather was an ape (Here, x is a large number somewhere around 500,000 or so. In fact, you could consider humans to be apes, because we have all of the ape characteristics, except that our legs are longer than our arms (instead of an ape's arms being longer than its legs, as in orangutans, chimps, etc.))

This is what evolution implies for our ancestry.

What specific problems do you, Vanderzyden (or any other theist who denies evolution) have with the above bolded statement?

In fact, listing my (known, probable, and hypothetical) ancestors:

• One of my 3-great grandfathers was a human (and Governor of Virginia)
• One of my 6-great grandfathers was a human (and the discoverer of Cumberland Gap and the guardian of Thomas Jefferson)
• Before that many more of my ancestors were humans
• Before that my ancestors were non-human genus Homo
• Before that my ancestors were hominids
• Before that my ancestors were apes
• Before that my ancestors were monkeys
• Before that my ancestors were prosimian-like
• Before that my ancestors were tree-climbing insectivores
• Before that my ancestors were rodent-like
• Before that my ancestors were primitive mammals
• Before that my ancestors were mammal-like reptiles
• Before that my ancestors were reptiles
• Before that my ancestors were amphibians
• Before that my ancestors were amphibian-like fish
• Before that my ancestors were fish
• Before that my ancestors were jawless fish
• Before that my ancestors were lancelet-like
• Before that my ancestors were primitive chordates
• Before that my ancestors were flatworm-like
• Before that my ancestors were placazoa-like
• Before that my ancestors were colonial choanoflagellates
• Before that my ancestors were flagellates
• Before that my ancestors were primitive eukaryotic cells
• Before that my ancestors were complex prokaryotic cells
• Before that my ancestors were bacteria-like
• Before that my ancestors were primitive bacteria
• Before that my ancestors were self-replicating RNA enclosed in phospholipid microspheres
• Before that my ancestors were self-replicating RNA molecules

Nevertheless, ALL of my ancestors have these things in common:

• They survived disease, wars, indian attack, predators, parasites, noxious chemicals, etc.
• They eeked out a living in a hostile world
• They survived immaturity (if any) and lived long enough to reproduce
• They found mates (if needed)

I have much to be proud of in my human and non-human ancestry.

Now, why would that be difficult to swallow?

NPM

[edited to correct the list protocols]

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Non-praying Mantis ]</p>

Oolon Colluphid

Bravo! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

The "I ain't descended from no monkey!" line has always pissed me off. What's wrong with monkeys? Why pick on them? You never hear creationists proclaiming crossly that their ancestors were not fish, or worms...

Ah well. As someone once said, being descended from an ape is no shame; being dumb as one is unfortunate.

Cheers, Oolon

Coragyps

Bravo, indeed!
All that creationist crowd claim descent from powdered rock and some guy's breath, anyway. I'd rather have a choanoflagallate any day!

Kosh

I was watching some neck-tie dude walking down the hall today, rather clumsily, and couldn't help thinking "An ape in a suit is still an ape!".

theyeti

You might be interested in this talkorigins post of the month: <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/jul02.html" target="_blank">The Descent of Man</a>. It explains the vast number of generations separating our modern selves from our ancient ancestors.

theyeti

Non-praying Mantis

Thanks, TheYeti!

Reading that link, maybe I should have titled this thread "My one-trillion-great grandfather was a single cell."

NPM

Late_Cretaceous

Each of us, as individuals, started out as single celled organisms.

Grumpy

Hell yeah, Late_Cretaceous! Forget Gramps; I used to be a single-celled organism.

(I got better.)

Vanderzyden

Why, yes, I do have problems in drawing such a conclusion. One of the problems was discussed in this <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001315" target="_blank">thread</a>

In general, there are immense differences between apes and humans. Of course, the Darwinist will minimize these, saying that it is a matter of degree, not category. But this is merely an assertion, and does nothing to explain why man has a MIND, why the apes do not. Apes swing in the trees. Men build, dance, sing, love, cry, hope, dream, introspect, reason, converse, write, and wonder to why bother with it all.

So, no, my granddaddy was not an ape. It is remotely possible that Adam's frame was an ape.

Now, I would like to ask you a question: What comes before this step?

-- Before that my ancestors were self-replicating RNA molecules

That is, what is the first biological event, and how did it come about?

(If you aren't aware, then be careful in your answer, because this is a loaded question.)

Vanderzyden

Gooch's dad

Vander:

Define what you mean by a 'biological event', please, as opposed to a purely chemical reaction.

In other words, please define 'life'.

Cheers!

-Kelly