thaiboxerken

That's the question. I've met many people that claim not to be religious, and yet they believe in "Chi" energy. I believe such a thing is a religious belief, as there is no proof of such an essence. Some believers go on to say that there is a science behind Chi and it's effects. I believe Chi is in the same category of "metaphysical phenomena" as psychic energy and "god's breath", it is a myth.

Toto

Chinese acupuncture uses the concept of "chi", and they claim to have some evidence that there are energy pathways in the body, corresponding to the meridians. But it is a very subtle force.

I studied yoga for many years, and the concept of chi is sometimes related to prana in yoga - but prana is just breath, nothing mystical.

But I suspect that you are referring to 'Qi Gong' or the Falun Gong sect, who claim to be able to override the laws of physics?

thaiboxerken

I think that the same "Chi" principle in acupunture is just as invalid as the QiGong super-powered people. There are all types of people that claim to use a sort of "magic" to heal people and to protect themselves or give themselves powers. For some reason, that Chi seems to go away when a person punches them in the nose.

I can see how breathing exercises can work and help relax the mind, but beyond that, I can't accept that there is anything magic without evidence of such. Even the acupuncture people aren't reliable with their methods, I feel it's mostly a placebo effect.

RyanS2

This all depends on what type of chi we're talking about. Real Chi is just the warm feeling you get in your hara where you feel invigorated, like a revitalizing energy. Chi is actually just "life energy", i.e. ability to adapt to stresses. When your Chi is low, you feel sick, tired, etc.

The confusion comes about when people claim they can harness chi to cause effects like breaking bricks, setting objects on fire, getting kicked in the testicles, etc. That's a side art of Japanese martial arts called Bujei, (I believe), which was a 19th century invention after Budo and Bujutsu lost popularity. It was primarily an invention of Shugendo and the Yamabushi, who would do a rather bizarre combination of physical tricks to impress audiences. There's nothing real about it, it's just side-show entertainment for money.

thaiboxerken

"Real Chi is just the warm feeling you get in your hara where you feel invigorated, like a revitalizing energy. "
"Real Chi"?!?! There is no proof of such an energy, no evidence. This Chi is about as credible as "God's breath" giving us life.

"When your Chi is low, you feel sick, tired, etc."
Is there proof of this? I always though people felt sick if they didn't get enough sleep, too much stress and other factors. People get sick because of virus, bacteria and germs.

"Real Chi is just the warm feeling you get in your hara where you feel invigorated, like a revitalizing energy."
Is it the same warm feeling I get when I do a shot of Jack Daniel's?

RyanS2

"Real Chi"?!?! There is no proof of such an energy, no evidence. This Chi is about as credible as "God's breath" giving us life."

Call it alkaline blood levels which induce euphoric levels of endorphines into the blood stream if it makes you happy.

Actually, "chi" is testifiable in that physiologists have asserted that the body has around 100 or so "adaptive" energies, (call it your chi if you want), to which any given stress precursor or stimuli may be applied, and thus we find the GAS (General Adaptation Syndrome), proposed by Dr. Hans Seyle, in which a stimuli is applied, the body adapts, and if pushed beyond a point where the bodies adaptive energies can handle the load, the body will begin to deteriorate.

"Is there proof of this?"

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I've already told you, that chi is just the bodies adaptive energies. If you don't believe the body has adaptive energies, I'd advise you take a few basic physiology classes and learn about cytology for a little bit. As I already stated: "Chi is actually just "life energy", i.e. ability to adapt to stresses."

If we're talking about results using "chi", did you know that America spends 3 billion dollars a year on weight loss products? It would seem then, that the gross yield for such massive spending would be tremendous. However, it is not. Of all the diets out there, Jenny Craig, SlimFast, Weight Watchers, etc. 95% of all people who go on the diets regain the weight in one year! The federal government even pressed charges against them for this, due to false advertising, which is why you now see the little label at the bottom, “results not typical”. 3 billion dollars, and in one year, 95% of them gain the weight back. Let’s look to China. The ancient Chinese observed and recorded obesity syndromes for literally thousands of years, and they concluded that there were three distinct classes of obesity. These findings were recently put to test in China by the Xi Yuan Hospital. Xi Yuan hospital is the headquarters of the Chinese Academy of Traditional Medicine. The researchers were able to treat 80% of the patients on a permanent basis. Here are the three levels.

Type 1: (spleen-wetness and phlegm-stagnation): Stuffiness in chest, shortness of breath, general fatigue, muscular weakness, dizziness, heart palpitations, abdominal distention, poor appetite, whitish coated tongue, weak pulse. Treatment: Qing Xiao.

Type 2: (Excessive heat in stomach and spleen): Gluttonous eating habits, frequent hunger, flushed face, dry mouth, reddish tongue with yellowish coat, constipation, forceful pulse. Treatment: Qing Tong.

Type 3: (Qi-stagnation and blood stasis): Chest pain, feeling of dissention, irritability, good appetite, irregular menstruation or amenorrhea, slightly dry stool, purplish tongue with pronounced spots, regular pulse. Treatment: Qing Jiang.

Several of the treatments involved herbs, which have trace elements and chemical reactants. These things boost the hormone system, regulate hormones, and improve the immune system.
When you ask a bacteriologist what comes first: the soil or bacteria, the answer is always the tainted environment in order for germs to thrive. Bacteria never exist in a proliferating state where there is no food or soil for their reproduction, but they multiply rapidly when decomposing material is available to feast on. They then die off when famine or adversity occurs. Most diseases are related to blood toxicity and organ health.

The actual translation of "Chi" is "life energy", and it refers to the bodies basic ability to adapt to stimuli. If you don't believe this exists, I'm afraid I'm at a loss to explain how you are able to perform cellular respiration.

"I always though people felt sick if they didn't get enough sleep, too much stress and other factors. People get sick because of virus, bacteria and germs."

Actually, that's incorrect, people don't get sick because of bacteria, viruses, and germs. Consider the "common cold". How is it that between 1965-67 the National Institute of Health's cold laboratories in Bethesda, Maryland conducted experiments that showed everything but contagion?

Volunteers were swabbed daily with "cold viruses" taken directly from those suffering colds, and none became ill. More people in the control group developed colds. In the meantime, shortly following traditional Thanksgiving feasts, the number of colds in both groups increased dramatically as would be expected as excessively rich food and drink is gorged upon during holiday festivities.

Days or weeks after overeating at such feasts, the vital body responds with a cleansing crisis. The "flu season" occurs at the same time each year, after Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Years, when people are stuffing themselves with junk food and alcoholic drinks for weeks at a stretch. The body's toleration point for sustaining toxic debris is surpassed and a cleansing period is initiated by the body, one which we erroneously term “the flu”.

Venereal disease is also supposed to be contagious. But the so-called contagious factors (bacteria) are present because of the disease and are not the cause of the condition. 20% or so of those suffering venereal disease have neither gonococcus nor spirochetes which are said to cause it.

According to "Boyd's Medical Textbook", most people harbor "viruses" without developing the particular diseases that the viruses are supposed to cause, and that enervating influences overcome the body's protective functions, "permitting the virus to usurp biological activities within the cell".

If you ask a bacteriologist which comes first, the bacteria or the soil, the answer is always the soil. No organism, (not one), can survive in conditions which do not allow it to live. Thus, viruses and bacteria are secondary, not primary, factors in whether or not you get sick. You're body is loaded with billions, (trillions actually) of bacteria's and viruses all throughout your body, yet you are not constantly sick your whole life. Health or sickness is actually related to the amount of a toxic load your body has at that point, when the toxicity of your blood stream goes up, the amount of bacteria and viruses go up shortly thereafter to feast upon it.

"Is it the same warm feeling I get when I do a shot of Jack Daniel's?"

Actually no, but I think you already know that. However, let me ask you a question. Why are you asking a question to which you don't intend to have an intelligent discussion upon, nor do you wish to hear contraindictive evidence to your initial supposition? That's like a theist coming onto this website and being appaled because there are atheistic discussions taking place.

ohwilleke

Certainly, chi, by half a dozen names, is a core concept in lots of Eastern metaphysical understandings. The notion of karma in Buddhism and Hinduism and most of Taoist belief describe some form of it. Feng Shui, Yoga, Acupuncture, martial arts, and more draw upon the idea.

The Greeks had a similar idea of the "four humors" (blood, a couple kinds of bile, and phlemgm) as central in human health. But modern medicine pretty much banished it.

Modern science calles Feng Shui so much hocus pocus and acupunture a way of triggering natural endorphin emission.

Some people have claimed to have detected physical manifestations of chi through photography, which they also associate with a personal "aura" and with the notions of souls and ghosts. Others associate "chi" with the immune system. Others apply "chi" in a "Goddidit" way when bodily phenomena are not explained. Scientologists see some sort of magical chi as the nature of man supressed only by various hangups.

While I certainly agree that the body is complex, to a degree more than currently understood, I'm not convinced that "chi" exists or that it is as fantastic as it is made out to be to the extent that it does exist. But, belief in "chi" is not necessarily theistic, although to the extent that you get into the moral balance of the universe it does seem like an abstracted god. I certainly don't think that there is any "Force" a la Star Wars or karma, that is out there bringing moral balance to the universe. At best there may be localized phenomena in many living creatures that we don't understand well yet.

lpetrich

I believe that "chi" is an unnecessary hypothesis.

Our bodies do not have "adaptive energies", but instead, self-regulatory feedback mechanisms, some of which are as old as the ancestor of all surviving Earth life. Such mechanisms often work like a thermostat, which turns a furnace off if the room becomes too hot; an example is that genes for proteins can be switched off by the protein that the genes code for, thus avoiding overproduction of that protein. However, that sort of thing may be too mechanistic for those who prefer thinking about mysterious forces like "chi".

As to performance with weight loss, it's not very difficult to lose weight by eating less and getting more exercise; however, one has to keep on doing that, and that could account for all the reported differences. There are also cases where fat people inadvertently force-feed themselves, like inadvertently inducing themselves to eat on some cue. The cure here is to recognize that that is going on and to fight it.

As to those supposed Bethesda, MD studies, RyanS2 is the only one who seems to know anything about them, because the existence of common-cold viruses is well-established. However, such viruses may exist undercover in the nose and throat linings, waiting for some stimulus to provoke them to induce coughing.

Many of our body's bacteria and viruses are essentially harmless residents that do not cause any real trouble; some bacteria may actually be beneficial. It is only a small fraction of these that are dangerous, and some of them may only be dangerous as a result of getting out of place, or out of getting some suitable snippet of DNA from some other bacterium.

thaiboxerken

"The "flu season" occurs at the same time each year, after Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Years, when people are stuffing themselves with junk food and alcoholic drinks for weeks at a stretch. The body's toleration point for sustaining toxic debris is surpassed and a cleansing period is initiated by the body, one which we erroneously term “the flu”. "
So you are asserting the the influenza is merely a myth, and that people get the flu from eating poorly and drinking beer? You make outstanding notions here, where is the proof? Also, it happens that the 'flu season' and 'holiday' season coincide with winter. It is the colder/wetter environment that takes it's toll on the immune systems, not so much junk-food and alcohol. Why are children at more risk for the flu if they dn't drink alcohol?

"Actually, "chi" is testifiable ..."
Did they call it "Chi"? If not, why do you wish to call these different energies and mechanisms in the body "Chi"?

You never posted results of the "Chi" based obesity medicines. Also, China has less cases of obesity because of their diets. They are not a fast-food society such as ours.

"The actual translation of "Chi" is "life energy", and it refers to the bodies basic ability to adapt to stimuli. "
Actually, it is "air". Orginally, the Chinese thought that our bodies mostly made of air. When people had their heads chopped off, they saw the big cavities of air. They didn't really pay attention to that nasty copper-red stuff.

"Why are you asking a question to which you don't intend to have an intelligent discussion upon, nor do you wish to hear contraindictive evidence to your initial supposition? "
Give me some good evidence and I'll change my mind. As of now, you only give speculations based on speculations.

RyanS2

It, like almost all ancient forms and methods of science, has been replaced by newer, better methods. The old way of doing minor surgeries was to literally choke out the patient and perform the surgery while he was unconscious. We now have anesthesics to do this instead. Greek and Arabic medicine has been improvised and improved upon greatly.

"Our bodies do not have "adaptive energies", but instead, self-regulatory feedback mechanisms, some of which are as old as the ancestor of all surviving Earth life. Such mechanisms often work like a thermostat, which turns a furnace off if the room becomes too hot; an example is that genes for proteins can be switched off by the protein that the genes code for, thus avoiding overproduction of that protein. However, that sort of thing may be too mechanistic for those who prefer thinking about mysterious forces like "chi"."

What determines how well you perform on a cellular level? The quality of your sleep, food you eat, water you drink, etc. Although not mentioned in detail within most physiology textbooks, sleep researchers and neurologists recognize that your nervous system is a conduit of low grade electricity. Like power lines that connect homes and businesses to the power station, your body's cells, tissues and organs are all connected through nerve channels to your brain and central nervous system that runs on a low grade energy potential referred to as nerve energy, measurable through EEG.

Your nervous system is recharged and nerve energy replenished during sleep, meditation, and rest with eyes closed. Nerve energy is subjectivity felt as being restfully alert and mentally refreshed. Under conditions of sleep deprivation, the mind in a matter of days becomes psychotically deranged, which provides evidence of the central role of nerve energy in everyday life. The reinvigoration relished by the emotions that occurs after a restful nights sleep, a brief soothing nap, or deep meditation provides further indication of the pivotal nature of nerve energy in overall wellness.

Especially in modern western culture, sleep deficiencies run rampant. This goes much further than simply a good night sleep. Millions of people attempt drug induced sleep via sleeping pills, which generates poor quality rest. After waking from sleep that is induced by sleeping pills, irritability, and lethargy often lingers. The result is continually short changed nerve energy. This is subsequently hastened by becoming more physically and mentally exhausted, and through continued emotional upheaval. Now, if we want to call our bodies ability to eliminate Endogenous and Exogenous toxins as "Chi", so be it. We'd now refer to it by a host of other names, but the concept is the same, the ability of the body to self-heal itself.

"As to performance with weight loss, it's not very difficult to lose weight by eating less and getting more exercise; however, one has to keep on doing that, and that could account for all the reported differences."

That study involved American and Chinese for a period of 10 years. 95% of all Americans gained it back in one year. Using the Chinese method, it stayed off. The reason was the Chinese method views obesity as disorder, or there is something wrong with the patient in why they are eating so much, while the American method views it as an effect of surplus calorie intake, i.e. you eat more than you exercise.

"There are also cases where fat people inadvertently force-feed themselves, like inadvertently inducing themselves to eat on some cue. The cure here is to recognize that that is going on and to fight it."

That's NAP, Neuro-associative programming. A number of studies suggest that women gain weight after emotional distress because carbohydrates, particularly ones like glucose, and fat release chemicals which cause the person ingesting them to feel better via chemical release.

"As to those supposed Bethesda, MD studies,"

Please, you're setting me up with a strawman from the beginning. The research is easy to obtain. I know you didn't try, and are already labeling me a fraud in your preliminary statement, which isn't very nice, because I think you're an okay guy petrich.

"RyanS2 is the only one who seems to know anything about them"

Wrong, several medical authorities know about that study. Hence the reason Boyd's Medical textbook lists that viruses are found throughout our bloodstream all the time. Likewise, STD medical authorities assert that about 70-90% of us have been exposed to Herpes Simplex-1, but the majority of us don't have the disease associated with it. Likewise, with Herpes Simplex-2, some people only have one viral outbreak in their entire lives from it, while others have repeated ones. Last year there was a great symposium on it, and the reasons why certain people had it often while others didn't. Mainly, the differences were: Diet, stress, rest, and overall quality of life.

"because the existence of common-cold viruses is well-established."

Read the study again. Very carefully. It says that volunteers were given the cold virus, yet none of them developed it. Now, how in the World does that translate into the existence of the common-cold virus being debateable?

"However, such viruses may exist undercover in the nose and throat linings, waiting for some stimulus to provoke them to induce coughing."

That's multi-facturalization. (Multiple factors inducing the effects.) This is what most cytologists believe. In general, viruses exist in very small amounts, and your body can handle them quite well. When the body is impaired, (hence the reason that Herpes outbreaks almost always happen during times of stress), the disease occurs.

"Many of our body's bacteria and viruses are essentially harmless residents that do not cause any real trouble; some bacteria may actually be beneficial."

Several are, without them, you'd have massive diarreah.

"It is only a small fraction of these that are dangerous, and some of them may only be dangerous as a result of getting out of place, or out of getting some suitable snippet of DNA from some other bacterium."

Yes, for instance E. Coli exists in the lower intestine, quite peacefully, but it wreaks havoc when it gets into the upper intestinal tract. But a "small percentage" of bacteria and viruses is actually a few billion viruses, even if we were to put it at a number like .000009 of viruses and bacteria. Again, reread my text, as I do not say that bacteria and viruses do not exist, but instead, that they are secondary in relationship to the diseases which progress. When the bodies immune system is hampered, some disease will be the result. (That's the reason AIDS is so deadly). You seem very intelligent Lpetrich, but please, don't strawman me into arguments I obviously didn't make.

Next up:

"So you are asserting the the influenza is merely a myth"

Nowhere do I ever make that statement. You're setting me up with a strawman from the start.

"and that people get the flu from eating poorly and drinking beer?"

Overall yes. You may wish to get a peer reviewed scientific journal and take note of any studies that talk about the effects of sugar on the lymphatic system.

"You make outstanding notions here, where is the proof?"

I can list it all day, for instance, Studies by Manuck, et al in 1991 showed that psychological stressors induced cell division among CD8 cells, thereby increasing the number of CD8 cells and suppressing immune function. These people, suprise, got sick more often. More?

According to research published in the June issue of the American Psychological Association's (APA) Journal of Personality and Social Psychology , healthy first year law students who endorsed optimistic beliefs prior to the beginning of the school year had higher levels and function of key immune cells in the middle of their first semester.

Psychologists Suzanne C. Segerstrom, Ph.D., Shelley E. Taylor, Ph.D., Margaret E. Kemeny, Ph.D., and John L. Fahey, Ph.D., of the University of California, Los Angeles showed using a variety of ethnic backgrounds, that mood affected immune response in 90 law students. Though the immune systems were virtually identical before the semester had started, during mid-semester, the optimistic students had higher helper T-cell levels and more natural killer cells than the students who reflected negative attitudes.

I stated that diseases were the result of toxemia/toxicosis, you state that I must have said that they don't exist. Nowhere do I make that statement. If you're asking me to show you that diet and health are correlated, I'd have to laugh at you. Diet is acknowledged, along with sleep and exercise, to be on the most important factors to health. Let's take an obvious example. Think about "contagious" diseases, for instance, in a closed setting like work. How come everyone at the work doesn't get sick? They're all being exposed to the same airborne pathogen. The reason? The pathogen requires a suitable breeding environment before it can progress anywhere.

For one reference: (Statistical Study of the Influence of the Dietary Factor on the Evolution of the State of Health of HIV - Seropositive Individuals. Conducted by : Institut Bruno Comby, 8, rue de la Croix-Blanche, Chambourcy, 78240, France. 33 1 30 74 00 33. A photocopy of this material is available from the CDC National Prevention Information Network Document Delivery Service, P.O. Box 6003, Rockville, MD 20849-6003. (800) 458-5231.)

Conclusion:

Studying the effects of a diet program for AIDS patients, the diet calls for 100 percent raw and organic foods that have not been altered in any way, including chemical or thermal alteration (heating). To complement the diet, patients must refrain from smoking, drugs, and alcohol. Patients must relax once daily, and develop good interpersonal relationships. The specific requirements of the diet are described in the full documentation.

The case studies presented represent patients who have adhered to the diet no less than 8 days. The author reports positive results for participating patients and states that return to traditional diet usually triggered off deterioration of the patient's state of health."

I can go through Medline, MedlinePlus (consumer health information), ClinicalTrials.gov, and CHID, (the Combined Health Information Database) to give you a few thousand studies like that, but, you have already admitted in prelimary arguments that you are biased, and don't care what I have to say, going so far as to misrepresent my argument. Again, why ask about something if you do not care to get an objective and factual outlook to it?

"It is the colder/wetter environment that takes it's toll on the immune systems"

Hmm... very interesting. So, by this conclusion, the Artic Inuits, the Norse region, and most of Russia should suffer from impaired immune systems correct? Or are you trying to say that the flu virus requires an incubational temperature that is colder? In either case, you're wrong. The flu is most often acknowledged, (and hence the reason the flu shots we receive prior to the flu season), are taken from Chinese chickens, (not a particularly cold area), as the flu virus is generally considered zoonotic, (passsed from animals to humans). Kind of like the HIV and monkeys, but we only know of two HIV forms that are present in humans, while the "flu" virus has many, many more.

", not so much junk-food and alcohol. Why are children at more risk for the flu if they dn't drink alcohol?"

Have you ever looked at what most kids eat? Mostly, junk food. As already stated, and what has been proven a few billion times through research, diet is one of the main factors to health. Kids are not known for being the most health-food conscious people in the World. I listed alcohol as (1) factor for it, not (all) factors for it. Again, you're presenting me with a strawman argument, one I never made.