Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Detached9 · 03-26-2002, 08:59 AM

Wouldn't the placebo effect be a form of mind-over-matter (psychokinesis)? The power of suggestion (mind) influencing our bodies (matter).

I've heard rumours that there actually is no such thing as a placebo effect as well. Anyone have a source on this?

Dr Rick · 03-26-2002, 09:52 AM

A recently published review questioned the role of the "placebo effect" in clinical trials, suggesting that its influence on clinical outcomes may not be as great as generally believed. The conclusions of the authors have been challenged by others, and the issue remains unresolved.

NEJM Volume 344:1594-1602 May 24, 2001 Number 21 Is the Placebo Powerless?— An Analysis of Clinical Trials Comparing Placebo with No TreatmentAsbjorn Hrobjartsson, M.D., and Peter C. Gotzsche, M.D.

"Background: Placebo treatments have been reported to help patients with many diseases, but the quality of the evidence supporting this finding has not been rigorously evaluated.

Methods: We conducted a systematic review of clinical trials in which patients were randomly assigned to either placebo or no treatment. A placebo could be pharmacologic (e.g., a tablet), physical (e.g., a manipulation), or psychological (e.g., a conversation).

Results:...As compared with no treatment, placebo had no significant effect on binary outcomes, regardless of whether these outcomes were subjective or objective. For the trials with continuous outcomes, placebo had a beneficial effect, but the effect decreased with increasing sample size, indicating a possible bias related to the effects of small trials. The pooled standardized mean difference was significant for the trials with subjective outcomes but not for those with objective outcomes. In trials involving the treatment of pain, placebo had a beneficial effect...

Conclusions: We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos."

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Detached9 · 03-26-2002, 10:29 AM

Thanks for the source; much appreciated.

From what I gathered from the aforementioned source, the placebo effect doesn't have much of an effect, but it does have a small one.

Would this be evidence for mind-over-matter?

Toto · 03-26-2002, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Detached9:
<strong>Thanks for the source; much appreciated.

From what I gathered from the aforementioned source, the placebo effect doesn't have much of an effect, but it does have a small one.

Would this be evidence for mind-over-matter?</strong>

Deepak Chopra makes this argument. He notes that you can change your brain chemicals by changing your thoughts.

But this is a long way from using your brain to get rid of a cancer tumor, or using your brain to focus energy on an external object.

Detached9 · 03-26-2002, 11:11 AM

[the evidence presented] is a long way from using your brain to get rid of a cancer tumor, or using your brain to focus energy on an external object.

I agree, an excellent point.

Kachana · 03-26-2002, 04:01 PM

There are various physiological mechanisms (involving the The hypothalamus and pituitary gland) by which one's mental state (in particular stress) can affect your immune system, it is possible that a placebo relieves stress and better outcomes are observed as a result of these mechanisms.

03-26-2002, 08:59 AM	#1
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Placebo Effect and Psychokinesis Wouldn't the placebo effect be a form of mind-over-matter (psychokinesis)? The power of suggestion (mind) influencing our bodies (matter). I've heard rumours that there actually is no such thing as a placebo effect as well. Anyone have a source on this?

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03-26-2002, 09:52 AM	#2
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	A recently published review questioned the role of the "placebo effect" in clinical trials, suggesting that its influence on clinical outcomes may not be as great as generally believed. The conclusions of the authors have been challenged by others, and the issue remains unresolved. NEJM Volume 344:1594-1602 May 24, 2001 Number 21 Is the Placebo Powerless?— An Analysis of Clinical Trials Comparing Placebo with No TreatmentAsbjorn Hrobjartsson, M.D., and Peter C. Gotzsche, M.D. "Background: Placebo treatments have been reported to help patients with many diseases, but the quality of the evidence supporting this finding has not been rigorously evaluated. Methods: We conducted a systematic review of clinical trials in which patients were randomly assigned to either placebo or no treatment. A placebo could be pharmacologic (e.g., a tablet), physical (e.g., a manipulation), or psychological (e.g., a conversation). Results:...As compared with no treatment, placebo had no significant effect on binary outcomes, regardless of whether these outcomes were subjective or objective. For the trials with continuous outcomes, placebo had a beneficial effect, but the effect decreased with increasing sample size, indicating a possible bias related to the effects of small trials. The pooled standardized mean difference was significant for the trials with subjective outcomes but not for those with objective outcomes. In trials involving the treatment of pain, placebo had a beneficial effect... Conclusions: We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos." [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

03-26-2002, 10:29 AM	#3
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	Thanks for the source; much appreciated. From what I gathered from the aforementioned source, the placebo effect doesn't have much of an effect, but it does have a small one. Would this be evidence for mind-over-matter?

03-26-2002, 11:11 AM	#5
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	[the evidence presented] is a long way from using your brain to get rid of a cancer tumor, or using your brain to focus energy on an external object. I agree, an excellent point.

03-26-2002, 04:01 PM	#6
Kachana Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 279	There are various physiological mechanisms (involving the The hypothalamus and pituitary gland) by which one's mental state (in particular stress) can affect your immune system, it is possible that a placebo relieves stress and better outcomes are observed as a result of these mechanisms.

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