L. Noctivagans

Not when the preservation of childrens' lives is a mutually exclusive ideal.

sullster

I will presume that you are not female and have never read about the misery of dying from infection after a back-alley abortion. You use the word "children" instead of fetus which is the correct term. It is obscuritanistic to use the word "child", because it is biologically incorrect.

Legal and safe abortion is a higher moral level than allowing back-alley abortion which kills and harms women.

Amen-Moses

I'll be a pain and say: Other!

i.e I happen to agree with my cultures current ruling:

Up to 12 weeks it is entirely the womans decision.

From 12-28 weeks the woman requires 2 independent qualified medical personnel to agree.

From 28 weeks on she needs to get 2 independent qualified MD's to authorise the termination on grounds of physical health risks (of woman or potential child) only.

(that is a simplified version of the actual rules btw but is basically what it all boils down to unless you are rich when rules-shmools, anything goes)

Amen-Moses

tronvillain

I am of the opinion that a woman is justified in having an abortion at any time during a pregnancy. I do not care what her reasons are - as long as it is inside of her, I am fine with her having it removed. Of course, I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder either.

dshimel

But this is a discussion board. We are not here to change the law, and are even unlikely to change any minds. We are simply engaging in an intellectual discussion of the foundations of morality and how that effects the issue of abortion.

Something can be immoral, and still be legal. It is immoral to cut into line in a grocery store, but you can't be thrown in jail for it. There are many times when every option is immoral, and we're forced to make a value judgement as ti which is the better option.

I do not believe a fetus is a person. What is, and is not, a person is a discussion that could fill volumes. Basically, I believe the brain has to be functional to the point where it is capable of consciousness. Exactly where this happens is anyone's guess, but it certainly isn't the first trimester.

I also don't like the "could develop" into a child argument against abortion as it can be used to justify the immorality of birth control or even abstainance. Had the woman not used birth control, the egg could have been fertalized and developed into a child....

The only thing I've come across about abortion that makes me doubt the non-immorality of the issue would be abortion for gender. That is, wanting a boy/girl, then repeatedly getting pregnant, letting the fetus develop to the point that ultrasound can reasonably accuratly determine genser, and if the baby is the wrong gender, abort it.

If the fetus is a thing, owned by the mother, then abortion in this situation should be fine. My feelings tell me this "abortion due to gender" is wrong, but I can't logically justify it without damaging my belief that abortion is not immoral.

99Percent

I agree.

I trust almost all women would make their decision to abort or not within a reasonable time, and not wait until the fetus is viable.

Even so, as a man, I really don't have a say on the matter.

L. Noctivagans

Sullster:
Fallacy: Appeal to Common Practice.
Murder has been going on for centuries, and always will. Theft has been going on for centuries, and always will. Etc.

I'd almost consider that 'self-defense' on the fetus's part, but I'm in a nihilistic mood tonight.

I'm sorry. Wait 30 days, and then use the word child. It should still be just as morally acceptable in a month, right?

If a woman is THAT desperate to not have to fill out adoption paperwork...

dshimel:
It could be, unless you use the 'unique genetic material' argument. At which point it stops being the woman's body and becomes the eventual kid's body when it has its own, unique set of genetic information. Neither of the sex cells, alone, is going to spontaneously erupt into a child. Both of them put together and implanted in the uterus wall generally will do so.

tronvillian:
Now THAT'S the kind of consistancy I'm looking for. I've never been able to figure out how someone can be all for killing the thing at day 270 and all against it on day 275.

Amen-Moses: One question... in the 12-28 weeks category, what exactly at the 2 medical personnel agreeing on?

99Percent:
Wouldn't it be nice if almost all women made their decision within a reasonable amount of time, "a reasonable amount of time" being "before getting pregnant in the first place"?

I suppose as a man, you don't have a say on Female Genital Mutilation. If some mother wants to do it to her daughter, hey, it must be all right with you, since you're not a woman and you don't get a say.
And while we're at it, women don't get a say when it comes to the Catholic priest scandals. Since only males were victims, women don't get a say.

"I'm a man, therefore I won't take a position" is a cop out. Either a kid is being deprived of his/her right to existence, or an abnormal cell growth is being removed. If it's the former, EVERYONE has a say because it's pretty akin to murder. If it's the latter, EVERYONE has a say because you need to protect your loved ones from these life-threatening parasites and the people who insist they not be removed.

Amen-Moses

That she is not bing forced into her decision and is making it after having all the information basically.

Amen-Moses

Jamie_L

A better poll, but still missing some important distinctions.

I think there is a developmental stage prior to which the fetus is not a "person". Up to that point, abortion-on-demand doesn't bother me.

Past that point, the fetus is a person, and abortion should really only be allowed in situations where there are life and/or health risks or other mitigating circumstances/complications.

The extremes of the spectrum would be a "morning after" pill abortion and abortion of a full-term infant. The former I've got no problem with, the latter I've got a big problem with. Somewhere, there's a dividing line (more likely dividing gray area).

Jamie

Monkeybot

We're in total agreement here 99 - but I would like to point out that sometimes women are not able to abort until late in the game for financial reasons. (Abortions cost money -- and sometimes it may take a month or two to raise it.)

This is where trimester arguments get into a grey area, IMO.