Max Bane

Hello, all.

I'm in a bit of a debate with some theists about the credibility of the bible's "inspiration", and we're specifically talking about the Old Testament atm. I've been mostly talking about how we don't really know the authors of all the books (except Ezra) and how the Jews themselves had not agreed on what was inspired until the 2nd c. CE. I've been basically paraphrasing a lot of what Ingersoll says in "About the Holy Bible".

Recently, someone has responded with this:
"How do you know who wrote what, Max? I'm sure you've got a good source on this info, but really - you say "we know."
Sometimes it seems like people accept info going against the bible just as easily and without question as they accuse Christians of doing with the Bible."

This really isn't a deep field of study or anything for me, so I was wondering if any of you might know some good Historical/Archaeological/Bible-Scholarly sources (preferably on the web) that support these assertions in particular:

• The Pentateuch mention towns and coinage that did not exist until long after Moses' death, so he could not have written them.
• The Book of Joshua refers to events long after his death.
• The Book of Judges was written long after the judges ceased to exist.
• The Captivity happened 500 years after David's death, so the Psalms that mention it could not have been written by him.
• Judaic inspiration was not agreed upon until the 2nd century CE.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Max Bane ]</p>

Bad Religion

Sorry to hit and run, but I have to go to a meeting. However, take a look at this link...

<a href="http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html</a>

Good luck.

Vorkosigan

Try

<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">www.skepticsannotatedbible.com</a>

or

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/index.shtml" target="_blank">The Skeptical Review</a>, Till's excellent magazine

or

<a href="http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/" target="_blank">Biblical Errancy</a>

All very useful.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

Peter Kirby

Are there any web sites devoted to the Old Testament?

Are there any discussion lists with the central topic of ancient Jewish writings including the OT?

I am aware of IOUDAIOS or something like that.

best,
Peter Kirby

offa

Offa; Max, I am very interested in your research. Your questions are tough. You start clicking on tyhe blue stuff you get into a "circle jerk".

Max Bane

Thanks for all the links, people.

Offa: "You start clicking on [the] blue stuff you get into a "circle jerk"."

I understand all the words in that sentence yet it makes no sense to me.

offa

offa; when you click on url's you get nowhere. Those that offer links are clueless. It is like a gang-bang --- power in people and not individuals. BTW, there is a story about a circle-jerk in the Old Testament when Moses turned his snake into a rod.

Walter_Mitty

Just ask them if Moses wrote the Pentateuch how could he have written of his own death:

Ask them why there are still Christians who believe Moses authored the Pentateuch. For example, the NIV Study Bible (1995) suggests that the multiple document hypothesis does not seriously challenge traditional church views of Mosaic authorship.

If they do not believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, ask them to explain these verses:

Finally, ask them why Christians keep disagreeing on the Mosaic authorship theory if the book is "inspired" by God and the Holy Spirit!

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

B. H. Manners

Ask them where are the original autographs. When they reply they are all lost tell them about all the willfully made variant readings the Bible contains (and I am not talking about the Catholic Apocrypha (sp?) either). Tell them that if they 1. cannot produce the original autographs and 2. cannot produce every copy of the texts made to create a 100% accurate history of their development, they can never be sure Satan did not inspire parts of the Bible. If they bitch at this idea tell them to produce an absolute objective moral standard by which to judge God's actions by. The only way they can determine what the will of Satan would be compared to the will of God is to produce a moral standard apart from but yet still binding on God. Of course they are not going to do that or try. They in fact will gasp in shock at the suggestion. If I need elaborate where I am going with this let me know and I will.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

B. H. Manners

I know what I wrote above is not exactly the help you wanted, but it puts Christians into shock because they cannot answer it. It prepares them for everything else you have to say.