Nikolai

how many people total are there in the school?

Bree

I also am a classical musician and I would think it a pity to delete certain parts of the choral repetoire simply because of the "dei" references. Some of the most beautiful (and indeed, some of the more accessible to a high school choir) pieces are religious in nature. For example, some of Mozart's most wonderful works (O Magnum Mysterium and his Requiem included, although it would be a rare high school to master that one!) are in Latin and reference God. One can sing them and not feel like a walking endorsement.

Spirituals have a musical historical value - you can't sing a spiritual without referencing God (hence the name) and the style is unique and enjoyable. The same goes for the Apartheid songs from South Africa (Siyahumba comes to mind; the first line translates into "we are marching in the light of God") - they have a place.

However, a high school (or junior high school) choral concert comprised of nothing BUT religious songs definately is not appropriate. I can see a performing high school or college chorus focusing their efforts on a certain theme or a certain type of music, but a junior high or regular high school chorus should be about exposing kids to as many different styles of music as possible, and letting the kids have fun while doing it.

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

abe smith

"You don't have to be (ANYTHING) to..." get a full-body/mind hard-on when you hear the Old Man's Magnificat in D, or his B minor Mass, either. THAT/those stuff are MAN-MADE; "gahd" has nothing to do w/ it/them. Someday the theology upon wh/ they are nominally-based will be as outdated & curious to then-minds as the Egyptians's worship of cats & baboons is to us... Ummmm, qy: do you think there'll come a time when humankind will NOT be "moved" &gt;&gt;&gt; bodily/sensorily grabbed, by those & their-like? "There's nothing Catholic/Christian about the B minor Mass." cf. "There's nothing SEXUAL about childbirth." This latter a quotation of some 19th century Bostonian *male* midwife =OB/GYN.

abe smith

P.S. Wm BYRD, the late-16th c. composer ,"s brief argument about everybody shd learn to SING because it's good for ya, was correct about that. I wish every human kid cd have the experience of singing the choruses of Verdi's Requiem, and of hearing sung-live around her the solos of that great non-Christian work...

Richard1366

I am not a professional musician (or even an amateur one) and I must admit a total lack of knowledge on the artistic values of various pieces of music. I am amazed at some of the comments made in this forum. Religious music is religious music, hymns and gospels are merely prayers or chants set to music.

These are 7th grade students in a public school environment, not the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. A choir program composed of three pieces with one being religious is just as unacceptable as one with all three pieces being religious. This is like saying "What's the harm with putting 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, it's only two words out of the whole thing?"

Where else would these types of songs be performed other than at religious or church services? Certainly there is suitable non-religious music available that could showcase the musical talents of this choir.

The Pieta is also a piece of great art, but I wouldn't want to see it displayed in the entrance hall to our local high school.

I guess that I would have to draw a line in the sand over this issue.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Richard1366 ]</p>

captainpabst

I agree with Richard Morey.

I have a music degree and I taught choral music in the public schools for 3 years (high school). When I was selecting music, I tried to choose literature that I thought was accessible yet challenging, stylistically diverse, and had artistic/aesthetic value. Many pieces chosen were religious in nature. Indeed, from my experience it's difficult to find a secular choral work that is accessible to the high school age group (much less the middle school age group) and also possesses aesthetic value. It depends on the group's skill level though - we were able to sing some Morten Lauridsen and Rodolfo Halffter. It would be a shame if students weren't exposed to the great composers of the world. They aren't considered great because they wrote music that was religious in nature. Bach spent his entire life working for various churches - he had to write new music for the service every week, as well as for special occasions. But we study and learn his works, not because they are fit for a church service, but because Bach was, as Nicolas Slonimsky noted, "The supreme arbiter and lawgiver of music." His compositions were more or less the foundation for modern tonal harmony.

I'm a non-believer, but if I were selecting a few songs for a Christmas program involving seventh graders, and the most fitting songs I could find (in terms of matching the ability level of the students, being appropriate for the event, and pleasing the audience) all mentioned jeebus or god or whatever, then so be it. Keep in mind also that money is tight, and the teacher may be limited to whatever is in the school's choral library. Maybe the budget for new music is very thin...

That said, it is entirely possible that the music teacher at the school is out to win souls. You never know.

If you want to express concern, I would advise going to the teacher directly, either via a letter or in person. If you aren't satisfied with the response, then maybe address the principal.

butswana

Nice letter, Arrowman. I might us it.
I understand the problem due to the type of music, but 3 for 3 seems a little fishy.
When she first told me what she did, she asked me if we could file suit and get on Donahue or O'Rielly.
She is off to fundyland at her mothers for the weekend, so I won't see her until Sunday.
The school is having a "Meet the Teacher" thing on Wednesday, looks like a possibility.

RichardMorey

Religious music is religious music, yes, but performing religious music is not necessarily a religious act. The purpose for the performance should be kept in mind - in a school music class, the purpose is to expose the children to art and performing. Most great art of the past 5 centuries has been religious, and that is something they should be exposed to and peform.

However, if the purpose of the teacher is, indeed, use the music in a religious way, that is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

See above. If the purpose is not indoctrination, but art, then it is acceptible.

As a performer, I can perform love songs without being in love, songs of hate without hating, and happy songs without being happy. Audiences know that the art is what I am creating when I perform - I am not saying that I love, or hate, or am happy.
A pledge is a pledge. We are not acting when we say this; we are not performers in the act of pledging allegiance. There is no artistic purpose behind the pledge. The analogy is ill-drawn.

Religious pieces are performed many places other than religious or church services. In fact, the very best performances of the greatest religious works are done by secular organizations. Check your local concert series or listen to your local secular classical music station.

This is another ill-drawn analogy. A better analogy would be whether you want art students to study the Pieta in sculpture class (part of musicians learning their art is performing; part of sculptors learning their art is examining famous sculpture). There need be no religious purpose to studying sculpture or performing religious music, it is art. Therefore, it is well within the bounds set by the establishment clause.

I think you are drawing the line in the wrong place. Music education would not be possible without religious music. Western classical music is cannot be separated from its religious past, and we shouldn't try. We need to realize that it has value separate from its religious content, and that is why the secularist can sit back and enjoy the greatest music created by western minds.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: RichardMorey ]</p>

4th Generation Atheist

When I was in a public school seventh grade choir---year not especially important , though it was recent enough for secularity to be a concern---we had a fairly fundie-ish choir teacher (I think he was Missouri-Synod Lutheran). He used to pick out a fairly Xt-heavy holiday program, with the obligatory "Havah Nagilah" thrown in to approximate religious "diversity" . However, most of his songs were arty enough and ok...except one that I found offensive even at that age, "Sinner Man". It was about some "sinner" guy on Judgment Day finding that various forms of nature---rocks, the ocean &c---weren't cooperating as he tried to hide from a vengeful deity and eternal damnation. It had nothing to do with Xmas or any winter holiday that I could tell, it was just a very Xtian song, and I and my parents all had the idea that it was chosen to put the conversion pressure on non-Xtian students. Its lack of artistic value lent support to this conclusion.

I think if there's one particular song that offends you this way, you've got a good chance of reasoning with the school. Try the choir director itself first. If this one's a fundie and won't listen to reason, invite school authorities to take part. If you have one or two less offensive or more neutral songs you can suggest instead, that might help, especially if you can choose them to be of approximate equal difficulty, exercising similar musical skills/concepts, and of equal or better artisitic merit.

Bree

Richard:

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