Bible Humper

Hello Vanderzyden,

My dear Vanderzyden, miracles are magic!

I would hasten to add that not all magic is miraculous, though, within christian theology there is also sorcery, manifestations of ghosts, demons and devils, astrology, alchemy, angels, etc.

Nope, can't say that I've ever read about the omniscient one being "foolish". I must have missed the relevance of this while I was napping, what are you getting at?

Ah ha! So you admit that the bible stories aren't at all credible because that would constitute "divine foreknowledge" and rob us of free will, eh?

Basically, you are playing make believe when you "feel the holy spirit" or "communicate with Jesus", eh? These two things would be especially decisive in robbing us of free will.

You also agree that "the Word" isn't remarkably inspirational or profound. If it was, it would be clearly be the work of an unearthly entity, thus robbing us of free will to decide to have faith or not, eh?

You also believe that the stories of miracles throughout history are a load of bullshit because that would really be kicking free will in the ass, eh?

Prayer doesn't work, in fact Yahweh never intervenes in any way that could be attributed to him, despite the fact that believers claim he did all the friggin time, eh?

LOL, this argument is total bunk. According to believers, Yahweh takes a very active hand in the lives of his faithful flock, thus "removing free will to decide". Or could it be that these perceived manifestations are merely make believe?

Think about it. This perfect God created us with the ability to reject him, hides all evidence of his existence, obscures the issue even more by allowing other religions to flourish which makes him seem to be just another fairy tale among many, but gets pissed off enough to send us to sizzle eternally for rejecting him.

Umm, Yahweh? Duh?

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper/ SCoW ]</p>

Bible Humper

Good grief man! Have you considered the truth claims in the Koran to be true? Have you read them yourself?

Be aware that despite the fact that there are thousands of religions that you haven't given a chance, we are familiar with your particular deity and his mythology.

Gee, only an omniscient deity could have thought of a pearl of wisdom so incisive that it immediately rips apart all doubts. What a crock.

Santa is still in the lead of this race. Go Santa!

DMB

This is the first time I have seen a theist specifically referring to the god of the gaps! The gaps have certainly got a lot smaller since the middle ages, when god was credited with doing everything.

But who are you to judge which children are truly good? Santa doesn't judge children from externals, but from the innermost being of each child which He is uniquely able to evaluate.

I have a real problem with the whole concept of an avatar. I might find such a person (?) a bit more convincing if s/he demonstrated the ability to live for ever in full view of humanity. If Jesus were still kicking around aged ~2000 years, he would seem at least pretty special. But why does god need avatars, and why only one? You have an allegedly infinite and omnipotent god who presents his/her/its message extremely inefficiently in the person of a finite human being who lives at a particular time and location and whose existence is quite poorly documented.

According to the bible, god was able to speak directly to various prophets, so why not communicate directly with every human being in an unambiguous way, not necessarily visually?

Since I regard the scripture as fiction, I would suppose that the purpose of the miracles reported therein is to delude the credulous.

Amos

My take on Free Will, Determinism and free will.

Free Will is the condition in which we are not divided in our own mind. The Freeman has Free Will because his conscious mind has been placed subservient to his subconscious mind and so this man goes by intuition. Some call it heaven, nirvana, or knowledge fo the Ultimate Form.

He can go by intuition because when he looks at things he does not see them with a specific image in mind but perceives them with the eye of his soul in which the specific image is already filtered through the wholistic perspective. This is why this is called the omniscient perspective and so he has noetic vision.

From this he alone can see the deterministic condition of humans who are driven by their own ego identity in which the conscious mind is the prevailing motivator behind his actions. The aim here is to enhance the person's status with attributes such as power wealth and beauty. He is motivated by desire to enhance his status because he is alienated from his own true idenity.

The idea of free will is presented to humans because regardless of who actually pulls the strings behind the motivation of humans, in the end it is the total person who must be held accountable because both his ego and true idenity belong to the same being.

Some humans are more rational while others are more non-rational but to the same extent one is less rational is one more non-rational. This goes both ways because our actions will always be the result of reason and non-reasom while the outcome may appear rational or irrational but never non-rational because the volition was engaged to perform the act.

Vanderzyden

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Vanderzyden

Well, I can see that you are not serious. Your short life is just a game to you. I won't bother you any further, unless you indicate that you are ready to dialogue as though you were speaking to another human being.

Good day,

Vanderzyden

Bible Humper

Good grief, are you really that sensitive?

My "Duh?" was for Yahweh, not for you.

Your short life is just a game to you.

Pretty much, yeah. Nothing to get all worked up about!

Vorkosigan

Vander, he was describing a fictional deity, not a real human being on this list, such as yourself. Sorry, but we're not going to protect your bloodthirsty god of hatred and death from accurate portrayal. Perhaps you could identify a factual error in his post? But if you could have, you would have.....

Philosoft

Nice work, Doc. I speak from experience when I say it's not easy being "genuinely disingenuous."

<strong> You mean you've come up with another way to weasel out of answering tough questions? Has your creativity no bounds?

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

Jobar

"Well, I can see that you are not serious. Your short life is just a game to you. I won't bother you any further, unless you indicate that you are ready to dialogue as though you were speaking to another human being.

Good day,

Vanderzyden "

If you wish to be treated seriously and respectfully on these boards, Vanderzyden, you should treat others that way. I think Bible Humper's argument is entirely serious, and does not diss you as an individual.

I know that for many- most- theists, their belief in their religion is so strong as to make an attack on their belief feel like an attack on their person.

In short- you owe BH an apology. You may not be able to refute his arguments, in fact I myself don't see how anyone can. But if you simply try to answer him with an ad hominem argument, you will lose not only the argument here, but any personal respect any of us may have for you.

Far better to admit you don't know the answer to his questions, and maintain our acceptance of your own integrity- at least if you plan to continue conversing with us. J.