Freethought & Rationalism Archive

butswana · 11-15-2002, 05:08 AM

My 7th grade daughter tells me that yesterday in her Industrial Technologies class they were talking about the technological ages(stone, bronze & iron).
The teacher said that they were going to skip the stone age because the text book says it was two million years ago, and since he doesn't believe that, they were going to skip it.
He says that there is evidence for both evolution and creation(the kid says "His only proof is the bible." HA!).
He then proceeded to tell the class that Adam & Eve were the first people and everyone comes from them, followed by some Jesus spiel. My daughter found it amusing that she(an athiest) was the only student who knew how long Jesus was allegedly on Earth.
I want to send the principal an email alerting him to this CSS violation. Exactly what law does this violate?

atheistdave · 11-15-2002, 05:18 AM

Call the local ACLU office and ask them. Assuming this is a public school, teachers are required to follow the curriculum set by the school board. I would start with the Principal and teacher, then take it as far as neccessary.

Dave

hezekiah jones · 11-15-2002, 05:28 AM

Quote:

This case does not present a novel issue. We have already confirmed the right of those authorities charged by state law with curriculum development to require the obedience of subordinate employees, including the classroom teacher. Judge Wood expressed the controlling principle succinctly in Palmer v. Board of Educ., 603 F.2d 1271, 1274 (7th Cir. 1979), cert. denied, 444 U.S. 1026, 100 S. Ct. 689, 62 L. Ed. 2d 659 (1980), when he wrote:

Parents have a vital interest in what their children are taught. Their representatives have in general prescribed a curriculum. There is a compelling state interest in the choice and adherence to a suitable curriculum for the benefit of our young citizens and society. It cannot be left to individual teachers to teach what they please.

Yet Mr. Webster, in effect, argues that the school board must permit him to teach what he pleases. The first amendment is "not a teacher license for uncontrolled expression at variance with established curricular content." Id. at 1273. See also Clark v. Holmes, 474 F.2d 928 (7th Cir.) (holding that individual teacher has no constitutional prerogative to override the judgment of his superiors as to proper course content), cert. denied, 411 U.S. 972, 93 S. Ct. 2148, 36 L. Ed. 2d 695 (1973). Clearly, the school board had the authority and the responsibility to ensure that Mr. Webster did not stray from the established curriculum by injecting religious advocacy into the classroom. "Families entrust public schools with the education of their children, but condition their trust on the understanding that the classroom will not purposely be used to advance religious views that may conflict with the private beliefs of the student and his or her family." Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 584, 96 L. Ed. 2d 510, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987).

Webster v. Lenox 917 F.2d 1004, 1007 (1990). (Emphasis added.)

That's a 7th Circuit decision, so it's both primary and mandatory authority in Indiana.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: hezekiah jones ]</p>

Jamie_L · 11-15-2002, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by butswana:
Exactly what law does this violate?

Not a law: the U.S. Constitution. Specifically the 1st Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion") when taken in conjunction with the 14th Amendment ("No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;...nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.).

Of course, we're assuming here you're talking about a public school. If it's a private school, you're out of luck.

Jamie

dangin · 11-15-2002, 05:32 AM

Kick that teacher's ass. Figuratively of course.

Belle · 11-15-2002, 05:36 AM

Idiot! I have come to the conclusion that this particualr idiot should be beaten to a bloody quivering mass of DNA. I'm shaking I'm so mad. This is the stuff that makes me want to become a "militant" atheist. If it happened to my kids I'm afraid I would come unglued.

lisarea · 11-15-2002, 05:38 AM

Well, it's basically just a first amendment issue, although there are usually school guidelines on addressing religion issues as well.

I wouldn't bother taking it any farther than the school administration at first. They should be familiar enough with the issue that you shouldn't have to do any real research before bringing it to them. The violation is so obvious that they probably won't need any references.

Just tell them what happened, and ask them what they plan to do about it. The teacher should be sanctioned, at the very least, and it's likely that there's a specific course curriculum approved by the school board that he's not following, so he'll have to go back and teach it, without editorializing. Class curricula are approved and sanctioned by the school board, so it's not really within the teachers' authority to change the topics covered.

At this point, I'd give the school the benefit of the doubt and assume that they want to do what's right and the problem lies solely with the teacher. If you don't get satisfaction by talking to them, then you'll have to start going up through the ranks and maybe contact your local ACLU office, the school board, etc.

And please let us know what happens. I'm frankly surprised that a teacher would commit such a flagrant violation, and I'm curious what the school is going to do about it.

Splat · 11-15-2002, 07:40 AM

We faced this 2 years ago over a teacher who was promoting Duane Gish's "Amazing Story of Creation" in his 4th grade classroom.

We started with the ACLU. They told us to contact the school's principal. We did, and she immediately took care of the problem by reprimanding the teacher, removing the book, and putting my daughter in a different class.

In addition to spewing godvomit, this teacher is also undermining the biology teachers in the district, and needs to be shut up strictly on those grounds.

(This came up in the God's Health Teacher thread a couple of weeks ago--I just bumped it).

B34RZ0R · 11-15-2002, 07:51 AM

MY how the religious right shows it's ability to fallow the laws of this country

!! If my little one where to tell me off this I think it would be time to attend the class with her and then ask for a conference with the teacher and the principle(s) of the school!~! I like Belle would most likely come unglued! I even fear what my sister might say to her.. telling her Jesus loves her and such! OYE! Side NOTE: Dont you think if we all stemmed from 2 individuals we would all be genetically mutated droolers? I mean c'mon! (sorry just had to say that)
Be Well
*Bear*

RufusAtticus · 11-15-2002, 08:23 AM

Don't go to the ACLU (or similar org) until after you have tried both the principal and/or the superintendent.

You can also look to see if/where the teacher's conduct violates state laws and regulations.

~~RvFvS~~

11-15-2002, 05:08 AM	#1
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	school issue My 7th grade daughter tells me that yesterday in her Industrial Technologies class they were talking about the technological ages(stone, bronze & iron). The teacher said that they were going to skip the stone age because the text book says it was two million years ago, and since he doesn't believe that, they were going to skip it. He says that there is evidence for both evolution and creation(the kid says "His only proof is the bible." HA!). He then proceeded to tell the class that Adam & Eve were the first people and everyone comes from them, followed by some Jesus spiel. My daughter found it amusing that she(an athiest) was the only student who knew how long Jesus was allegedly on Earth. I want to send the principal an email alerting him to this CSS violation. Exactly what law does this violate?

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11-15-2002, 05:18 AM	#2
atheistdave Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Dana, IN USA Posts: 225	Call the local ACLU office and ask them. Assuming this is a public school, teachers are required to follow the curriculum set by the school board. I would start with the Principal and teacher, then take it as far as neccessary. Dave

11-15-2002, 05:32 AM	#5
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Kick that teacher's ass. Figuratively of course.

11-15-2002, 05:36 AM	#6
Belle Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 498	Idiot! I have come to the conclusion that this particualr idiot should be beaten to a bloody quivering mass of DNA. I'm shaking I'm so mad. This is the stuff that makes me want to become a "militant" atheist. If it happened to my kids I'm afraid I would come unglued.

11-15-2002, 05:38 AM	#7
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	Well, it's basically just a first amendment issue, although there are usually school guidelines on addressing religion issues as well. I wouldn't bother taking it any farther than the school administration at first. They should be familiar enough with the issue that you shouldn't have to do any real research before bringing it to them. The violation is so obvious that they probably won't need any references. Just tell them what happened, and ask them what they plan to do about it. The teacher should be sanctioned, at the very least, and it's likely that there's a specific course curriculum approved by the school board that he's not following, so he'll have to go back and teach it, without editorializing. Class curricula are approved and sanctioned by the school board, so it's not really within the teachers' authority to change the topics covered. At this point, I'd give the school the benefit of the doubt and assume that they want to do what's right and the problem lies solely with the teacher. If you don't get satisfaction by talking to them, then you'll have to start going up through the ranks and maybe contact your local ACLU office, the school board, etc. And please let us know what happens. I'm frankly surprised that a teacher would commit such a flagrant violation, and I'm curious what the school is going to do about it.

11-15-2002, 07:40 AM	#8
Splat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hell, PA Posts: 599	We faced this 2 years ago over a teacher who was promoting Duane Gish's "Amazing Story of Creation" in his 4th grade classroom. We started with the ACLU. They told us to contact the school's principal. We did, and she immediately took care of the problem by reprimanding the teacher, removing the book, and putting my daughter in a different class. In addition to spewing godvomit, this teacher is also undermining the biology teachers in the district, and needs to be shut up strictly on those grounds. (This came up in the God's Health Teacher thread a couple of weeks ago--I just bumped it).

11-15-2002, 07:51 AM	#9
B34RZ0R Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lost in the Ether, Minnesota Posts: 1,436	MY how the religious right shows it's ability to fallow the laws of this country !! If my little one where to tell me off this I think it would be time to attend the class with her and then ask for a conference with the teacher and the principle(s) of the school!~! I like Belle would most likely come unglued! I even fear what my sister might say to her.. telling her Jesus loves her and such! OYE! Side NOTE: Dont you think if we all stemmed from 2 individuals we would all be genetically mutated droolers? I mean c'mon! (sorry just had to say that) Be Well Bear

11-15-2002, 08:23 AM	#10
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Don't go to the ACLU (or similar org) until after you have tried both the principal and/or the superintendent. You can also look to see if/where the teacher's conduct violates state laws and regulations. ~~RvFvS~~

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