Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arrowman · 07-02-2002, 04:33 PM

Apart from questioning the accuracy of the "information" in the e-mail, I be inclined to challenge the fact that it was sent at all.

You should e-mail this guy, politely pointing out that it is inappropriate to use company-funded facilities to circulate political or religious material. You might even be able to find a company policy which mentions that very subject.

(You might even be inclined to lodge a complaint with management but my guess is, in most places that would be a complete waste of time and do you more harm than good.)

As for the accuracy or otherwise of the "facts" and quotes:
- Many of them (eg Webster's motivations in writing the dictionary) are "so what" issues anyway.
- And for those which happen to be accurate, you could probably find any number of alternative references which contradict them - and most importantly, demonstrate the attitude of the men in question to the Consitution and the United States, as opposed to their personal beliefs.

But that is all pointless when replying to someone who thinks this is a cogent argument:

Quote:

PROOF of the Declaration being attached to the Constitution is found in Article VII. The Constitution attaches itself to the Declaration by dating itself as being signed in the twelfth year of the independence of the United States of America! Now that proves the founding fathers considered themselves to have been living in the USA for twelve years under the government document of the Declaration of Independence. Not only was the Constitution dated in recognition of the Declaration of Independence, also the later government acts were dated from the Independence of the United States of America.

Alonzo Fyfe · 07-02-2002, 05:02 PM

There is another question to be asked on top of whether the Constitution was written by Christians.

That question being whether it was written by Christians of tolerance, or Christians of Crusades and Inquisitions.

They left the word "God" out of the Constitution when it would have been very easy to include it. This suggests that they would likely not be pleased by the present generation of Americans attempting to insert it back in, through pledges or amendments.

Berenger Sauniere · 07-02-2002, 09:17 PM

The bottom line is they weren't Christian enough to want Christianity established as the State religion, nor did they want anyone else to have the power to do so. That Constitution was a direct message to the Roman Catholic Church (or anyone else) that it would be futile to set up shop here. With this lot of Protestants we have running things now though, that might be a piece of cake. In fact, the Protestants here today seem to be lusting after Papal Power. Imagine Falwell riding around in one of those Pope-mobiles wearing his little pointed hat waving to the ignorant Protestant masses.

Buffman · 07-03-2002, 02:55 AM

copernicus

John Quincy Adams was perhaps a little more enthusiastic about our Christian heritage than was his father, President John Adams, who said:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion."

Small nit-pick! John Adams did not say this. Joel Barlow wrote it in English and the treaty, in English, was unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by Pres. Adams. However, he did attached a special note in which he said, "Now, be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said treaty, do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm same, and every clause and article thereof."
("Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States" edited by Hunter Miller, vol. 2, 1776-1818. U.S. Government Printing Office, 1931, p.383)

Corwin

Franklin became much more religious as he got older...

Do you have an original source reference for this?

fromtheright

Could you please provide your definition of God. Difficult to provide a meaningful response to your post until we are both agreed on what you mean by "references to God."

dimossi

Finding the original source document references for everything in your original post is quite a time consuming task. Off the top of my pointy head, some are accurate and some are not.

From your second post:

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

That percent is not unreasonable...depending on the names listed as "founding fathers." However, the claim that all 97% exercised their supernatural faith belief "in public office, at work, at home..." seems a rather absurd statement for anyone to make that wasn't physically present in each of those places to observe each man's devotionals. Of course Christianity was taught to their children...but not Catholic Christianity, nor any other Non-Established Protestant faith in nine of the 13 colonies with established State denominational churches.

187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

What silliness! I say it was only 186. Now what? How did someone arrive at that number? First they would have to determine the "first" 200 colleges in America. Not exactly a pressing issue. Then they would have to research the principles upon which each was founded. However, to declare that they were all Christian is like me declaring that they were all "male-only" colleges. Most of today's colleges and universities offer religious studies courses...including the study of Christianity. By that token, every college is a Christian college.

Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people.
You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge.

Here is what Webster had to say about his bible work.

(Extract)
In performing this task, I have been careful to avoid unnecessary innovations, and to retain the general character of the style. The principal alterations are comprised in three classes.
1. The substitution of words and phrases now in good use, for such as are wholly obsolete, or deemed below the dignity and solemnity of the subject.
2. The correction of errors in grammar.
3. The insertion of euphemisms, words and phrases which are not very offensive to delicacy, in the place of such as cannot, propriety, be uttered before a promiscuous audience.
(End Extract)

In other words, he censored the Holy Bible to fit his faith beliefs and sense of morality. However, please note:

Born a Puritan, "Webster had a conversion experience during the Second Great Awakening, whereupon he became an orthodox Calvinist and an ardent Congregationalist."

Now read this to get a far more accurate picture than you will find at any current Christian URL.

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qwebstrn.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qwebstrn.htm</a>

If you wish me to dig into all the stuff you have in your first post...better throw me an incentive bone. It's damn hard work when you attempt to be completely honest, fair and accurate....and I have to get some sleep first.

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

JohnR · 07-03-2002, 03:10 AM

God man we forgot the prayers!
<a href="http://www.jmu.edu/madison/prayers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jmu.edu/madison/prayers.htm</A>
Then it gets voted down.

fixing url agian!

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]</p>

Brian K. · 07-03-2002, 04:20 AM

dimossi:

Quote:

The Declaration of Independence appeals to God no less than three times. Four to those who can see His Name in the phrase "protection of divine providence". Five to those who can admit the phrase "created equal" means created by God, not evolved from chaos...The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence declared within it their undying faith towards God for all generations to see and follow.

Many historians say that the main reason God was envoked in the Dec. of Ind. was to justify the war that was happening at the time (Revolutionary War). In fact, Jefferson, who wrote the Dec. of Ind. was a deist. The Constitution was written to establish a stable Government inwhich all freedoms would be preserved. Even the one about religion. I wonder if the Articles of Confederation metioned God? N-E-Ways America just fought a war with a unruly "Mother" who forced her religion on all its citizens and therfore Americans (the Founding Fathers in particular) didn't want to do it themselves with the nation that lie before them. Hope that helped. Peace out!

Grumpy · 07-03-2002, 01:35 PM

As an aside, there's nothing incompatible with the concept of human equality and the idea that humans "evolved from chaos." It's the same chaos for everyone, so everyone starts on the same foot.

Except, of course, that we all know that's not true. But it's fun to believe it.

Rational RLK · 07-03-2002, 02:04 PM

The Declaration of Independence was NOT the governing document of the pre-Constitution USA. It was The Articles of Confederation.

dimossi · 07-03-2002, 03:13 PM

Thanks again everyone, especially Buffman on your efforts.
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Buffman · 07-04-2002, 02:00 AM

dimossi,

Simply using this Magic Box as a research tool, I was not as successful as I had hoped I might be. Sorry. However rather than chuck what I did find interesting, albeit not fully confirming one way or the other, I thought I would post it and potentially save others at least a little time going over my path.

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

Complete quote:
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system. (In a letter to John Adams, Oct. 4, 1790)

[Note the use of "Christian system" rather than Christian faith or religion.]

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

<a href="http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/1749proposals.html" target="_blank">http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/1749proposals.html</a>

History will also afford frequent Opportunities of showing the Necessity of a Publick Religion , from its Usefulness to the Publick; the Advantage of a Religious Character among private Persons; the Mischiefs of Superstition, &c . and the Excellency of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION above all others antient or modern (* 19).
(* 19) See Turnbull on this Head, from p. 386 to 390. very much to the Purpose, but too long to be transcribed here.

[BEWARE: Something does not seem right about "CHRISTIAN RELIGION" being the only words in all upper case letters, and "ancient" misspelled. (This hypertext version was created by Derek Smith C'97.) This is another problem with not being able to view the original document, or certified true copy, with your own eyes.]

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT

<a href="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/inside/projects/jaypapers/" target="_blank">http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/inside/projects/jaypapers/</a>

[Not fully operational yet...at least not for my low level of expertise.]

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams

[No quick luck finding it; but the ones below provide a portion of the probable context.]

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Adams_Family_Religion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Adams_Family_Religion.htm</a>

"When I observe into what inconsistent absurdities those persons run who make speculative, metaphysical religion a matter of importance, I am fully determined never to puzzle myself in the mazes of religious discussion, [and] to content myself with practicing the dictates of God and reason so far as I can judge for myself. . . ."

<a href="http://user.ksni.net/~uuquincy/articles/stamps/4johnquincy.htm" target="_blank">http://user.ksni.net/~uuquincy/articles/stamps/4johnquincy.htm</a>

[Some additional insight extracts.]

"He preferred preachers to speak of the fruits of religion rather than to linger over dogma. Tillotson's homilies (ten volumes) were read by John Quincy for the rest of his life."

"He rarely moved beyond a rational approach to questions involving religious faith, although he always claimed to be a Christian and to acknowledge an afterlife. Once after an illness, he had lost his sight, and when it returned, he turned to works of religion and theology. In his letters to his parents he wrote: "Thanks to their pious instruction, he had never been pulled away from belief when he had faced temptation of infidelity in life."

"When he returned to the United States and lived in Washington D.C., he found All Souls Church (later Unitarian) there, organized in 1821.When he was Secretary of State, he accepted the presidency of the American Bible Society because he became alarmed at the nation's religious attitude: the contrasting appeals of Unitarianism and Evangelicalism. Now his diary was filled with rebuttals to liberal Unitarianism and intolerant Fundamentalism"

A page of history is worth a volume of logic. History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.

[My revised statement.]

A page of accurate history contributes to a ton of accurate logic. Accurate history can show the intent and purpose of our founding and framing fathers. Contemporary logic is rife with inaccurate history, especially about those men who crafted the Constitution, intentionally rewritten in an attempt to support or deny secular or religious social and political agendas.

No matter how many times the identical quote(s) appear on the Web, they are all worthless unless they provide verifiable basic source references...including those I have posted above that lack them.

I hope this is of some value to you and others.

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-02-2002, 05:02 PM	#12
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	There is another question to be asked on top of whether the Constitution was written by Christians. That question being whether it was written by Christians of tolerance, or Christians of Crusades and Inquisitions. They left the word "God" out of the Constitution when it would have been very easy to include it. This suggests that they would likely not be pleased by the present generation of Americans attempting to insert it back in, through pledges or amendments.

07-02-2002, 09:17 PM	#13
Berenger Sauniere Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: et in Arcadia ego... Posts: 406	The bottom line is they weren't Christian enough to want Christianity established as the State religion, nor did they want anyone else to have the power to do so. That Constitution was a direct message to the Roman Catholic Church (or anyone else) that it would be futile to set up shop here. With this lot of Protestants we have running things now though, that might be a piece of cake. In fact, the Protestants here today seem to be lusting after Papal Power. Imagine Falwell riding around in one of those Pope-mobiles wearing his little pointed hat waving to the ignorant Protestant masses.

07-03-2002, 02:55 AM	#14
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	copernicus John Quincy Adams was perhaps a little more enthusiastic about our Christian heritage than was his father, President John Adams, who said: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion." Small nit-pick! John Adams did not say this. Joel Barlow wrote it in English and the treaty, in English, was unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by Pres. Adams. However, he did attached a special note in which he said, "Now, be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said treaty, do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm same, and every clause and article thereof." ("Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States" edited by Hunter Miller, vol. 2, 1776-1818. U.S. Government Printing Office, 1931, p.383) Corwin Franklin became much more religious as he got older... Do you have an original source reference for this? fromtheright Could you please provide your definition of God. Difficult to provide a meaningful response to your post until we are both agreed on what you mean by "references to God." dimossi Finding the original source document references for everything in your original post is quite a time consuming task. Off the top of my pointy head, some are accurate and some are not. From your second post: 97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. That percent is not unreasonable...depending on the names listed as "founding fathers." However, the claim that all 97% exercised their supernatural faith belief "in public office, at work, at home..." seems a rather absurd statement for anyone to make that wasn't physically present in each of those places to observe each man's devotionals. Of course Christianity was taught to their children...but not Catholic Christianity, nor any other Non-Established Protestant faith in nine of the 13 colonies with established State denominational churches. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible. What silliness! I say it was only 186. Now what? How did someone arrive at that number? First they would have to determine the "first" 200 colleges in America. Not exactly a pressing issue. Then they would have to research the principles upon which each was founded. However, to declare that they were all Christian is like me declaring that they were all "male-only" colleges. Most of today's colleges and universities offer religious studies courses...including the study of Christianity. By that token, every college is a Christian college. Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people. You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge. Here is what Webster had to say about his bible work. (Extract) In performing this task, I have been careful to avoid unnecessary innovations, and to retain the general character of the style. The principal alterations are comprised in three classes. 1. The substitution of words and phrases now in good use, for such as are wholly obsolete, or deemed below the dignity and solemnity of the subject. 2. The correction of errors in grammar. 3. The insertion of euphemisms, words and phrases which are not very offensive to delicacy, in the place of such as cannot, propriety, be uttered before a promiscuous audience. (End Extract) In other words, he censored the Holy Bible to fit his faith beliefs and sense of morality. However, please note: Born a Puritan, "Webster had a conversion experience during the Second Great Awakening, whereupon he became an orthodox Calvinist and an ardent Congregationalist." Now read this to get a far more accurate picture than you will find at any current Christian URL. <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qwebstrn.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qwebstrn.htm</a> If you wish me to dig into all the stuff you have in your first post...better throw me an incentive bone. It's damn hard work when you attempt to be completely honest, fair and accurate....and I have to get some sleep first. [ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

07-03-2002, 03:10 AM	#15
JohnR Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Eastern PNW Posts: 572	God man we forgot the prayers! <a href="http://www.jmu.edu/madison/prayers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jmu.edu/madison/prayers.htm</A> Then it gets voted down. fixing url agian! [ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]</p>

07-03-2002, 01:35 PM	#17
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	As an aside, there's nothing incompatible with the concept of human equality and the idea that humans "evolved from chaos." It's the same chaos for everyone, so everyone starts on the same foot. Except, of course, that we all know that's not true. But it's fun to believe it.

07-03-2002, 02:04 PM	#18
Rational RLK Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 9	The Declaration of Independence was NOT the governing document of the pre-Constitution USA. It was The Articles of Confederation.

07-03-2002, 03:13 PM	#19
dimossi Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 243	Thanks again everyone, especially Buffman on your efforts. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

07-04-2002, 02:00 AM	#20
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	dimossi, Simply using this Magic Box as a research tool, I was not as successful as I had hoped I might be. Sorry. However rather than chuck what I did find interesting, albeit not fully confirming one way or the other, I thought I would post it and potentially save others at least a little time going over my path. " Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams Complete quote: Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system. (In a letter to John Adams, Oct. 4, 1790) [Note the use of "Christian system" rather than Christian faith or religion.] "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin <a href="http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/1749proposals.html" target="_blank">http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/1749proposals.html</a> History will also afford frequent Opportunities of showing the Necessity of a Publick Religion , from its Usefulness to the Publick; the Advantage of a Religious Character among private Persons; the Mischiefs of Superstition, &c . and the Excellency of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION above all others antient or modern (* 19). (* 19) See Turnbull on this Head, from p. 386 to 390. very much to the Purpose, but too long to be transcribed here. [BEWARE: Something does not seem right about "CHRISTIAN RELIGION" being the only words in all upper case letters, and "ancient" misspelled. (This hypertext version was created by Derek Smith C'97.) This is another problem with not being able to view the original document, or certified true copy, with your own eyes.] "Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT <a href="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/inside/projects/jaypapers/" target="_blank">http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/inside/projects/jaypapers/</a> [Not fully operational yet...at least not for my low level of expertise.] "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams [No quick luck finding it; but the ones below provide a portion of the probable context.] <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm</a> <a href="http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Adams_Family_Religion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Adams_Family_Religion.htm</a> "When I observe into what inconsistent absurdities those persons run who make speculative, metaphysical religion a matter of importance, I am fully determined never to puzzle myself in the mazes of religious discussion, [and] to content myself with practicing the dictates of God and reason so far as I can judge for myself. . . ." <a href="http://user.ksni.net/~uuquincy/articles/stamps/4johnquincy.htm" target="_blank">http://user.ksni.net/~uuquincy/articles/stamps/4johnquincy.htm</a> [Some additional insight extracts.] "He preferred preachers to speak of the fruits of religion rather than to linger over dogma. Tillotson's homilies (ten volumes) were read by John Quincy for the rest of his life." "He rarely moved beyond a rational approach to questions involving religious faith, although he always claimed to be a Christian and to acknowledge an afterlife. Once after an illness, he had lost his sight, and when it returned, he turned to works of religion and theology. In his letters to his parents he wrote: "Thanks to their pious instruction, he had never been pulled away from belief when he had faced temptation of infidelity in life." "When he returned to the United States and lived in Washington D.C., he found All Souls Church (later Unitarian) there, organized in 1821.When he was Secretary of State, he accepted the presidency of the American Bible Society because he became alarmed at the nation's religious attitude: the contrasting appeals of Unitarianism and Evangelicalism. Now his diary was filled with rebuttals to liberal Unitarianism and intolerant Fundamentalism" A page of history is worth a volume of logic. History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution. [My revised statement.] A page of accurate history contributes to a ton of accurate logic. Accurate history can show the intent and purpose of our founding and framing fathers. Contemporary logic is rife with inaccurate history, especially about those men who crafted the Constitution, intentionally rewritten in an attempt to support or deny secular or religious social and political agendas. No matter how many times the identical quote(s) appear on the Web, they are all worthless unless they provide verifiable basic source references...including those I have posted above that lack them. I hope this is of some value to you and others. [ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.