Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dimossi · 07-02-2002, 11:24 AM

A guy at our work sent around this SPAM e-mail with statements and quotes regarding the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, & Christianity.

I suspect the integrity of this information is questionable, if not completely false. Please help me disect what is true from what is false. Thanks.

Quote:

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams

A page of history is worth a volume of logic. History shows the intent and purpose of our founding fathers. Contemporary logic is wrong whenever it contradicts the clear explanations of those men who wrote the Constitution.

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people.

You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge.

Fewer and fewer people remembered the exhortations of those men who established this nation to follow Christ and give Christian teaching in the schools, as the backbone and main course of our schools. p>

The Declaration of Independence appeals to God no less than three times. Four to those who can see His Name in the phrase "protection of divine providence". Five to those who can admit the phrase "created equal" means created by God, not evolved from chaos.

Contrary to what is currently taught at most federal and state schools, Samuel Adams pointed out this strong lesson which is contradicted in courts today: "Before the formation of this Constitution...this Declaration of Independence was received and ratified by all the States in the Union and has NEVER been disannuled."

The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence declared within it their undying faith towards God for all generations to see and follow.

The Articles of Incorporation call the entity into existence and the By-laws then explain how it will be governed. Therefore the governing of the corporation under its by-laws must always be within the purposes and framework set forth in its Articles. The By-laws may neither nullify nor supersede the Articles. The Constitution neither abolished nor replaced what the Declaration had established; it only provided the specific details of how American government would operate under the principles set forth in the Declaration.

PROOF of the Declaration being attached to the Constitution is found in Article VII. The Constitution attaches itself to the Declaration by dating itself as being signed in the twelfth year of the independence of the United States of America! Now that proves the founding fathers considered themselves to have been living in the USA for twelve years under the government document of the Declaration of Independence. Not only was the Constitution dated in recognition of the Declaration of Independence, also the later government acts were dated from the Independence of the United States of America.

"The Jubilee of the Constitution" by John Quincy Adams explains the Constitution as dependent upon the virtues proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. That's why the Ten Commandments are inscribed in stone on the Supreme Court building. Those men saw the law of God as the basis of all law for all men always, never to be changed! How can we withhold God and His truth from our educational classrooms for children today? One Nation Under God. United we stand together with Christ.

They erected a beacon to guide their children, and their children's children: for all men who would pursue life, liberty, and happiness...they pointed us to God and to His Son Jesus Christ. They desired that their posterity might look again to the Declaration of Independence and take courage to renew that battle which their fathers began, so that truth, justice, mercy, and all Christian virtue not be extinguished from the schools of this land.

copernicus · 07-02-2002, 11:47 AM

You might find <a href="http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html" target="_blank">this web site</a> interesting. For example, take a look at the Treaty of Tripoli, which was a legislative acknowledgment of US secularism.

John Quincy Adams was perhaps a little more enthusiastic about our Christian heritage than was his father, President John Adams, who said:

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion."
(From Peter's Quotations).

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>

Shadowy Man · 07-02-2002, 11:49 AM

If God was so important to our founding fathers, why did they neglect to mention him at all in the Constitution, the very document that establishes our country?

I don't think it really matters if the founding fathers were Christian. The fact is that they intentionally set up a secular government, feeling that the State has no right to interfere with the religious conscience of its citizens. In my opinion, this was a good idea and should remain the modus operandi.

Toto · 07-02-2002, 12:52 PM

This topic is currently under discussion in the Political Forum:

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=000765" target="_blank">Was the US founded on CHRISTIAN principles </a>

braces_for_impact · 07-02-2002, 01:01 PM

I would also point out that if the declaration of Independence was provided for us as a "beacon" of christianity, then why is it that many of the signers of the document neglected to sign it until years later? A few didn't sign it until the war was almost over! Also, the Declaration of Independence was just that - a declaration. It is not considered a matter of law, even if the spirit of the document is followed with respect to our inalienable rights.

Also, what else concerns me here is that this email was sent at work, how blatantly unprofesional is that? Why is it that some of these theists can't seem to stop themselves from prosyletizing no matter the current situation? I wonder what the reaction would be if you sent an email asking everyone to sign one of the many petitions supporting the 9th disctrict's court decision, supported by evidence of most of the founding fathers being deists, and intentionally making a seperation between church and state?

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: braces_for_impact ]</p>

Orestes · 07-02-2002, 01:01 PM

I would email him and call his bluff on those quotes. Ask him for their sources. I strongly suspect that the Franklin quote is BS, as he was a deist and had little respect for most preachers and churches, according to his autobiography anyway.

The John Q. Adams quote seems like BS too. However, I'm not sure about the Samuel Adams and John Jay quotes, though I suspect that Sam Adams was a deist as well, but I could be wrong.

Corwin · 07-02-2002, 02:06 PM

I've been having this argument on another board....

Sam Adams was one of the few actual christians, (of any orthodox sect) among the founders. Franklin became much more religious as he got older... (possibly hedging his bets? It happens. When you have a society that obsesses on religious topics even the best of minds can start to get nervous near the end...)

Grumpy · 07-02-2002, 02:11 PM

Say, I'm pretty proud of my posting on this topic in the Political Discussions thread. Feel free to turn that into widely disseminated e-mail spam. It's high time we had an antidote in circulation.

dimossi · 07-02-2002, 02:28 PM

Thanks to every one that has replied so far. What about these claims made in the e-mail:

Quote:

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools.

187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Noah Webster wrote the dictionary with Bible verses explained so children could understand the words of God and know the truth of Jesus Christ. Webster even wrote a translation of the Bible for the American speaking people.

You could hardly find a school in America that wasn't Christian based with the Bible as its main text book until the 1830's. As a result of the attack upon children learning the truths of God and Salvation, the American Sunday School League was formed during that same decade so those children who were deprived could still get Bible knowledge.

Are these false? Any references would be helpful...thanks.

fromtheright · 07-02-2002, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadowy_man:

If God was so important to our founding fathers, why did they neglect to mention him at all in the Constitution, the very document that establishes our country?

shadowy,

I think you've got three separate issues here, though. Whether they mentioned God in the Constitution does not translate to their view of the importance of God. They were simply framing a system of government. I think there are also an abundance of quotes from the Founders as to the importance of religion to public morality. Also I would disagree that the Constitution "establishes our country". Was it then a separate and different country than that under the Articles of Confederation? I think that the Declaration of Independence which separated us from Great Britain more accurately establishes us as a country, and the last time I checked it has a few references to God.

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07-02-2002, 11:47 AM	#2
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	You might find <a href="http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html" target="_blank">this web site</a> interesting. For example, take a look at the Treaty of Tripoli, which was a legislative acknowledgment of US secularism. John Quincy Adams was perhaps a little more enthusiastic about our Christian heritage than was his father, President John Adams, who said: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion." (From Peter's Quotations). [ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>

07-02-2002, 11:49 AM	#3
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	If God was so important to our founding fathers, why did they neglect to mention him at all in the Constitution, the very document that establishes our country? I don't think it really matters if the founding fathers were Christian. The fact is that they intentionally set up a secular government, feeling that the State has no right to interfere with the religious conscience of its citizens. In my opinion, this was a good idea and should remain the modus operandi.

07-02-2002, 12:52 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This topic is currently under discussion in the Political Forum: <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=000765" target="_blank">Was the US founded on CHRISTIAN principles </a>

07-02-2002, 01:01 PM	#5
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	I would also point out that if the declaration of Independence was provided for us as a "beacon" of christianity, then why is it that many of the signers of the document neglected to sign it until years later? A few didn't sign it until the war was almost over! Also, the Declaration of Independence was just that - a declaration. It is not considered a matter of law, even if the spirit of the document is followed with respect to our inalienable rights. Also, what else concerns me here is that this email was sent at work, how blatantly unprofesional is that? Why is it that some of these theists can't seem to stop themselves from prosyletizing no matter the current situation? I wonder what the reaction would be if you sent an email asking everyone to sign one of the many petitions supporting the 9th disctrict's court decision, supported by evidence of most of the founding fathers being deists, and intentionally making a seperation between church and state? [ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: braces_for_impact ]</p>

07-02-2002, 01:01 PM	#6
Orestes Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 349	I would email him and call his bluff on those quotes. Ask him for their sources. I strongly suspect that the Franklin quote is BS, as he was a deist and had little respect for most preachers and churches, according to his autobiography anyway. The John Q. Adams quote seems like BS too. However, I'm not sure about the Samuel Adams and John Jay quotes, though I suspect that Sam Adams was a deist as well, but I could be wrong.

07-02-2002, 02:06 PM	#7
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	I've been having this argument on another board.... Sam Adams was one of the few actual christians, (of any orthodox sect) among the founders. Franklin became much more religious as he got older... (possibly hedging his bets? It happens. When you have a society that obsesses on religious topics even the best of minds can start to get nervous near the end...)

07-02-2002, 02:11 PM	#8
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Say, I'm pretty proud of my posting on this topic in the Political Discussions thread. Feel free to turn that into widely disseminated e-mail spam. It's high time we had an antidote in circulation.

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