Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:

"What if God embraces those who want Him and grants evidence to those who truly seek?"

How do I know when I'm "truly seeking"?

Why would God want to hide Himself from everyone who doesn't try really hard to find him? He reminds me of a hermit on a cave on top of a treacherous mountain, but it's worse than that; one has to suspend one's deeply held convictions about what to trust and what not to trust to climb this mountain. And a bunch of people who climb this mountain find no hermit at all.

I assert that God would be morally better if He were to make it reasonable to believe in His existence, because belief in Him is so important. The idea that God would be someone so capricious as only to allow some of those who try really hard to find Him, to discover that He exists, is rather hard to swallow. Maybe He reminds me more of a leprechaun, or a fairy, or elf.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

How does one find 'God'?

One has to sincerely seek 'Him'.

How does one know that one has 'sincerely' sought 'God'?

One has 'found' 'Him'.

Does any one else find the above specious, sophistric, circular (and thus fallacious), and insulting?

Keith.

Naked Ape

Hello SOMMS.
Although you have regurgitated your curious contention several times, you have not elaborated on the nature of the magical evidence that true believers are privy to and why precisely this evidence is not perceivable by unbelievers. Has this evidence been crafted from the same fabric as the Emperor’s New Clothes? If you were to place your evidence in front of me, would it be invisible, or would I simply not consider it evidence?
Regarding the concept of “sovereign power and authority over everything”, you clearly assume that such a thing exists, or perhaps your belief in this concept conjures up it’s very existence…like your god and the magic invisible evidence thereof. I do not believe that “sovereign power and authority over everything” is a valid concept. I know that the words themselves exist, and their arrangement doesn’t break generally accepted literary principles, but seriously…what on earth is that phrase supposed to mean.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

PS: I see your satan palindrome and raise you five god palindromes.
Do geese see god?
He lived as a devil, eh?
Swap God for a janitor? Rot in a jar of dog paws!
Dog sex at noon taxes God.
God lived on no devil dog.
…Call or fold SOMMS.

Goliath

SOMMS,

I have made no such claim. Therefore I have no burden of proof.

You, on the other hand, have claimed that your god (if it exists) only shows evidence of its existence to those who already believe in it. The onus of proof is 100% on YOUR shoulders, SOMMS, not mine.

Now, please quit being dishonest about where the burden of proof really lies and either put up or shut up.

Sincerely,

Goliath

wdog

it seems to me that 'acknowledging sovereign power and authority' is kind of meaningless. if there is a god, i would acknowledge that he exists. things like sovereign power and authority would follow simply by implication that there is a god with the christian like qualities. I think SOMMS means 'would you worship and obey?'

why the hell would a loving being require worship?

very good ape <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: wdog ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

pheblas,
This isn't quite right. If you had evidence...you would have no reason to seek.

Did you mean:
The evidence is available if I seek God. But I will only seek if there is a good reason to.


I honestly can't speak for others or their thoughts, intentions, and experiences. The only person I can speak for is myself.

I do know this. The prime reason I was an atheist was because I felt if God really did exist then He should give me a sign of His existence. After all, He's supposed to be omnipotent right? What's one little sign?

I even remember standing in a deserted cornfield somewhere and explictly saying "God...if you don't give me sign I am not going to believe in you." Of course there was no answer.


It wasn't until much later when realized how *me-centric* this was. I was essentially demanding that God show up on my doorstep...perform some magic trick...and then and only then I would grace God with my belief in Him. For me there was a certain amount of smirking pride in 'laying down the law' for God and telling him how it really was.


As it turned out, life has a way of completely removing pride. :^) At least it did for me. It was *after* this when I came to the point of honestly and earnestly seeking God. Not to make him jump through hoops, but because IF he was there...I wanted to know Him. Never once did I assume He existed and just 'go from there'. However, I did seek. It wasn't until I honestly sought God that evidence of his presence became abundant.


In retrospect, this makes complete sense. God could not care less whether or not you or I think he exists. In fact this probably seems quite funny to God. Hence his silence when I implored a sign from him. God could not care *more* to have a real relationship with us. Hence his embrace when I really sought him without have a chip on my shoulder.


Probably, the one thing you and I can agree on is how stupid Pascals wager is. Don't get me wrong, the guy was a brilliant mathematician, but...


This is disturbingly close to the attitude I had. Can you hear the tone? 'God missed his chance'. Brilliant.

Listen...IF God exists...he misses nothing. It is *us* who misses the chances. Not him. It is *us* who are subservient to him...not the other way around.


My .02


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

ohwilleke

Then God only has the power to affect those who believe in ways that are not observable to those who do not believe. This is a pretty meager kind of power.

Eudaimonist

Been there. Done that. Found no god. Found better ideas instead.

Psycho Economist

Nonsense. God wouldn't have to show up on my doorstep and "do a magic trick" to convince me. That wouldn't do a thing.

If a supernatural agent existed there would be sure and unequivocal signs of that existance that could not be explained by other hypotheses, solely as a consequence of his existance and activity. Modern Christianity is well protected from rational scrutiny by its pushing if its deity further and further back into the supernatural and the coincidental.

But if the god of their Bible were as real as he seemed to be three thousand years ago, we could see, document and confirm the biblical-type miracles that allegedly happened right and left back then: and they would all stand inscrutable to critical analysis. The brain and the mind would not be one. Every discovery by systematic science would make the universe add up less, not moreso.

And yet you can't tell us what the nature of this abundant evidence is...

It sounds like you weren't happy as an atheist, you practiced your prior beliefs (or perhaps some other creed that appealed to you) until you internalized them, that relieved your cognitive dissonance and you were happy again. That doesn't prove your God is real, just that you aren't cut out to be an atheist any more than I'm cut out to be a Christian.

I say good for you. Be happy, and let us be happy, in our different ways. If any of us cannot find peace with our philosophies, whatever they may be, we will change them in due time.

Psycho Economist

And what says either one of us would have to be subservient?