emotional

You'll have to take this discussion with a theist who believes unbelief in God is a sin... a Christian, for example.

For my part, I don't believe people are judged for their faith or unfaith, but I believe they do stand in judgement for their actions. According to what I regard as evidence (I take NDEs as a literal description of what happens after death), one stands in front of God and is shown a Life Review of all actions during earthly life. God doesn't send anyone to the heavenly or hellish realms, but standing in front of Him makes one ashamed of all one's misdeeds (which are: acting unkindly, unlovingly towards other people), and one sends oneself to a hell plane until repentance. One's actions are foreknown to God from the beginning, but that doesn't excuse them, that doesn't dilute the existence of objective good and evil.

Deke

Emotional writes: You'll have to take this discussion with a theist who believes unbelief in God is a sin... a Christian, for example.

But you’re doing such a good job stating your thoughts! Don’t desert me now Anywho, I didn’t intend this thread to be a discussion on the sinful nature of unbelief, but perhaps it is heading in that direction...

You concluded: One's actions are foreknown to God from the beginning, but that doesn't excuse them, that doesn't dilute the existence of objective good and evil.

Again, I am not arguing that our actions are excusable because God knows about them, that idea has led to a lot of bad things over the centuries. The operative words are: “One’s actions are foreknown to God…” I suppose if we had to boil it down to syllogism, my point might be:

1. Our actions are foreknown to God (to steal your words).
2. All of God’s actions are ultimately Good for the Universe
3. God creates humans He knows (see point 1) will choose non-belief
4. Therefore non-belief is Good

Another way to put it: God created me for a purpose, and His purpose is ultimately Good, therefore I and my attendant beliefs are ultimately Good.

Deke

emotional

But if you just substitute an immoral act for unbelief, you get the following syllogism:

1. Our actions are foreknown to God.
2. All of God’s actions are ultimately Good for the Universe
3. God creates humans He knows (see point 1) will choose to murder
4. Therefore murder is Good

That just doesn't add up. A man's murdering may be predetermined in God's foreknowledge, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

But I don't get it, you just said:



Your own words, then, refute that argument. Or I haven't understood your argument properly. Again, lay off "unbelief" and talk about a universally acclaimed immoral act like "murder" instead. One cannot excuse a murder by saying it was the will of God. We are moral agents with decisional free will.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Then that settles it. If God exists, then he is not omniscient.

I'm not arguing that free will doesn't exist. I will freely admit that I cannot philosophically justify it, but my intuition is that God does not exist and humans are able to have a certain amount of free will.

This is irrelevant to the discussion, though. We are talking about free will in the context of an omniscient creator. If God is omniscient, then there is no way for us to have decisional free will. That you think you know that you have a choice over whether or not you put you hand on the flame is meaningless--it could be designed such that you think you know that you are making decisions, when in reality God had already predetermined those very decisions.

Really? When are you going to justify this statement within the context of an omniscient creator? You keep spouting out the same dribble, but you aren't substantiating any of these claims

-Nick

Deke

emotional: That just doesn't add up. A man's murdering may be predetermined in God's foreknowledge, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

Ahh, now we’re getting somewhere. I agree with you, this doesn’t add up. What you have aptly illustrated is that actions are more important than words. What I do, is more important that whatever belief I profess to have, or not have.

I previously wrote: Another way to put it: God created me for a purpose, and His purpose is ultimately Good, therefore I and my attendant beliefs are ultimately Good.

emotional: But I don't get it, you just said:

me: Again, I am not arguing that our actions are excusable because God knows about them, that idea has led to a lot of bad things over the centuries.

emotional: Your own words, then, refute that argument. Or I haven't understood your argument properly.

Notice the difference in my two statements: the first one speaks about my beliefs, the second one speaks about my actions.

You asked me to lay off unbelief and instead focus on bad actions such as murder. Emotional, my whole point was to focus on beliefs as part of God’s knowledge aforethought.

Deke

emotional

You are entitled to such an opinion.



You still haven't explained how God's foreknowledge of everything undermines decisional free will. I simply can't see any contradiction between the two.

There's nothing to substantiate. My faith is properly a faith, not evidence. I couldn't prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God if my life depended on it, but I can still believe in one.

emotional

Thus much I believe also: God looks at the actions of men and not at their beliefs (unless they are hate-promoting beliefs). I don't believe in salvation by faith.

But what is the difference between beliefs and actions as far as God's omniscience is concerned? Both are foreknown to God. Neither beliefs nor actions are made justifiable because of God's foreknowledge.

BadBadBad

I love these free will discussions. It's like the christians that support these free will positions have a little cult organization that's been going on for decades now that have informally cannonized some God Breathed doctrine revealed uniquely to them and collectively to them as a group through their own personal walks with Jesus. So, let's see if yet another christian spouting the mantra can answer the questions:

1. Show us biblical basis for the concept that God has foreknowledge of our decisions even with respect to salvation.

2. Show us biblical basis for your assertion that God created the earth 15 billion years ago.

3. Show us where the Bible relates what it says about pre-destination to what it says about salvation through faith. Show us where your version of this relationship is supported by the Bible. Basically the position generally stated in terms of foreknowledge and predestination is that God has foreknowledge and his predestination is a result of your future free will decisions. Can you show us where you get that out of the Bible?If not can you tell us more about your personal walks with Jesus?

4. Explain to us in more detail how foreknowledge doesn't imply a single immutable timeline into the future. Explain to us how if God knows from the beginning of time every instant of our future and every decision I might make for my entire life, before he creates me, and he creates me anyway how that's free will not pre-destination.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Opinion? You said it yourself. Free will exists. Since an omniscient entity cannot create free will, then God is not omniscient. Unless you can logically reconcile omniscience and free will, there is no way around it.

Of course you don't. It's called doublethink.

Anyway, if God exists, and if God knows everything, then he can know what every particle and every bit of energy (in effect, everything) will do for all eternity. Since he knows everything, he also knows which patterns of energy will cross which patterns of matter in order to form a thought--so he knows what you will think before you think it. Now, if God did not create everything, then I can grant that we have free will and God just has amazing predicting abilities.

However, your (implied) argument is that God created everything. If God created everything, then he knew what everybody would do and think before he created them--and still chose to create it in this manner. How is it that we can have decisional free will if God already knew what decisions we would make and created us such that we would still make those decisions?

If I build a robot and design it so that it cuts a piece of wood in half, then would you argue that the robot is exercising decisional free will by choosing to follow its parameters? It has no choice but to follow the parameters, and its choices are already preplanned. How are humans different?

You can have faith in this all day long. However, if you plan on telling me that I'm wrong, then you had better be prepared to justify your arguments. I'm not going to accept what you say on faith when it is you who is not using logic to support his arguments.

I have to go out of town for the weekend, so we'll have to pick this up again Sunday or Monday. Have a good weekend!

-Nick

emotional

Nice personal attack.



We're not robots. Robots don't have the ability to make decisions. Robots only follow parameters, and they follow them blindly. Humans have parameters that enable them to choose their own parameters. A robot can do only what it's programmed to do. We're not programmed, we have free will, the ability to decide upon things.

Unless you're going to say our decisions are only an illusion. Which would be akin to advocating maya (the whole world is just an illusion).

Now come on! I've admitted so many times on these boards that my belief in God and the afterlife is not logical, so you're asking me to use logic to justify my arguments? I apply logic to the immediate questions of life, such as how to drive my car to a particular destination. I don't apply logic to metaphysical questions such as ultimate origins and life after death, because logic leads there into a way I don't want to go.