Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richiyaado · 08-23-2002, 10:45 AM

I posted the following in another forum and thought someone here might know something about it.

I may be wrong, but I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that there's a link between the Chalcedon Foundation (or at least someone connected with Christian Reconstructionism) and the Discovery Institute in Seattle. The DI is the principle force behind the ID movement. Does anyone know whether this is true?

Toto · 08-23-2002, 10:56 AM

Here's what I posted in the other forum:

The link is Southern California conservative gazillionaire Howard Ahmanson. He's mentioned <a href="http://www.eskimo.com/~pierres/atlas/king_map.html" target="_blank">here</a> and profiled <a href="http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs7003.htm" target="_blank">here.</a>

From the latter:

Quote:

Ahmanson served for over two decades on the board of directors of the Chalcedon Foundation, Rousas J. Rushdoony's Reconstructionist think tank that serves as the intellectual center of the movement. Ahmanson has also generously supported the Foundation's work.

. . .

[P]romotional materials from the Seattle-based Discovery Institute acknowledge that the Ahmanson family donated $1.5 million to the Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture for a research and publicity program to "unseat not just Darwinism but also Darwinism's cultural legacy." In fact, the August 1999 issue of the Discovery Institute's Journal recognizes an Ahmanson outfit for providing the Center's start-up funds.

In fairness, it should be noted that Ahmanson is no longer on the board of the Chalcedon Foundation, and has tried to distance himself from its more extreme views. But this may just be a political ploy.

Richiyaado · 08-23-2002, 11:15 AM

Thanks, Toto, now I remember. Lizard mentioned him.

I'd be curious to know whether the DI has ever acknowledged any connection to Christian Reconstructionism, or have they been as coy about this as they've been about "The Wedge" strategy?

Interesting that Johnson dedicated one of his books to Ahmanson.

pangloss · 08-23-2002, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richiyaado:
<strong>Thanks, Toto, now I remember. Lizard mentioned him.

I'd be curious to know whether the DI has ever acknowledged any connection to Christian Reconstructionism, or have they been as coy about this as they've been about "The Wedge" strategy?

Interesting that Johnson dedicated one of his books to Ahmanson.</strong>

This topic is what got me banned on ARN (the second time). Someone, "Mike Gene" (I think it must have been "Playing Stupid Mike") maybe, gave me a hard time for posting the obvious link between the DI and right-wing Christianity.

I then posted an article (neither of those linked to above) that had uncovered the fact that Johnson had taken money from Ahmanson - and as you mention even 'clandestinely' thanked him for 'seeing the light' or some such nonsense in one of his many pamphlet-like books.

The 'moderator' at the time deleted it (for obvious reasons) and I continued to repost it.

Then I got banned - the reasoning was that I was engaging in 'ad hominem' attacks against Johnson by basically pointing out the truth and supporting it with documentation.

So, yes, the DI - certainly Johnson - has ties to such extremism. But, as evident from the repeated deletion of my posts and ultimate banning, they don't want it to be well known.

KC · 08-23-2002, 12:54 PM

Ahmanson no longer supports Chalcedon, but I'm not sure why. The connection between DI and Christian Reconstructionists has been known for some time, and this should scare the bejeezus out of any reasonable person. For those unfamiliar with their thinking, Reconstructionists want to tear down our form of government, and replace it with a theocracy based on Hebrew law as described in the Old Testament. Here is one of their leading writers, David Chilton, on slavery:

Quote:

The care of slaves Slaves have no economic incentive to work, since they cannot improve their situation regardless of how hard they labor. Therefore the master is allowed to provide that incentive by beating them (Exodus 21:20-27). Obviously, the slave is not regarded as having equal rights as a free man. But this very fact would keep a man from entering slavery too hastily. Slavery has certain benefits (job security, etc.), but it has serious drawbacks as well. Slavery was not allowed to become irresponsible welfare or paternalism. The law limited the master, however. If he murdered his slave, he was executed (Exodus 21:20). On the other hand, if the slave survived a beating and died a day or two later, there was no punishment (Exodus 21:21); there was no evidence that the master had actually intended to murder him. Again, this risk was a serious incentive against enslaving oneself. God did not want men to heedlessly abandon their freedom, and this law would tend to keep men working hard and living responsibly in order to avoid the threat of losing their liberty and civil rights. Relatively minor but permanent injuries (such as the loss of an eye or a tooth) resulted in the slave's freedom (Exodus 21:26-27). This was also an economic incentive to keep the master from hitting the slave in the face, since a heavy blow could mean the loss of his "investment." Naturally, this law protected slaves from severe mutilation

Cheers,

KC

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: KCdgw ]</p>

theyeti · 08-23-2002, 01:41 PM

Holy cow KC, if I didn't know better I would swear that was a parody. I'll trade you one:

Quote:

On ultimate goals: "So let us be blunt about it," says Gary North. "We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."

Well, at least he's being honest about his lying.

BTW, that quote came from <a href="http://reason.com/9811/col.olson.shtml" target="_blank">this article</a> in Reason Magazine. Lots of other juicy tidbits there...

theyeti

Richiyaado · 08-23-2002, 02:12 PM

Yikes! After reading the Reason article, and seeing that Ahmanson "does not embrace all of Rushdoony's teachings," I'm left to wonder which teachings he still does embrace. Killing gays? Stoning women?

Does anyone know if he's still contributing money to the DI?

Bubba · 08-23-2002, 02:24 PM

The problem with reconstructionism is that you need to convince people they want to be hard core fundamentalist christians in the first place. While I'm no longer a hard core consservative evangelical, trust me, people are starting to see the right kind of light on this kind of stuff. I have a lot of Christian friends who reject the conservative views on the environment and agree with Al Gore. Or other christian friends who are scared silly by the likes of Bush, Buchannon, and Pat Robertson. I even know an awful lot of christians who are starting to become tolerant of homosexuality.

The best thing about theocracies is that they are self curing because once people have tried it they never want to stay that way. Look at all of the winds of reform in Iran. One of the guys I work with is Iranian, and a lot of his family is still in Iran. A whole bunch of people in that society are really pissed off at the hard core militants.

Hopefully, most conservative/evangelical/mainline/liberal christians will continue to view North and Chilton for the nutcases that they truely are.

Bubba

Bubba · 08-23-2002, 02:27 PM

Sorry about the rant but these people really make me angry.

Bubba

KC · 08-24-2002, 11:22 AM

Does the DI or anyone else really believe that Baptists, Presbyterians, various evagelical splinter groups, Reconstructionists, Catholics, and Moonies that make up the ID movement will peacefully coexist once the monolithic atheist conspiracy is torn down?

I see an ideological bloodbath on the horizon. Hopefully, we can keep ID in check long enough for their natural antipathies towards each other to consume them before they reach their first goal.

KC

08-23-2002, 10:45 AM	#1
Richiyaado Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 172	Christian Reconstructionism and ID I posted the following in another forum and thought someone here might know something about it. I may be wrong, but I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that there's a link between the Chalcedon Foundation (or at least someone connected with Christian Reconstructionism) and the Discovery Institute in Seattle. The DI is the principle force behind the ID movement. Does anyone know whether this is true?

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08-23-2002, 11:15 AM	#3
Richiyaado Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 172	Thanks, Toto, now I remember. Lizard mentioned him. I'd be curious to know whether the DI has ever acknowledged any connection to Christian Reconstructionism, or have they been as coy about this as they've been about "The Wedge" strategy? Interesting that Johnson dedicated one of his books to Ahmanson.

08-23-2002, 02:12 PM	#7
Richiyaado Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: New Orleans Posts: 172	Yikes! After reading the Reason article, and seeing that Ahmanson "does not embrace all of Rushdoony's teachings," I'm left to wonder which teachings he still does embrace. Killing gays? Stoning women? Does anyone know if he's still contributing money to the DI?

08-23-2002, 02:24 PM	#8
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	The problem with reconstructionism is that you need to convince people they want to be hard core fundamentalist christians in the first place. While I'm no longer a hard core consservative evangelical, trust me, people are starting to see the right kind of light on this kind of stuff. I have a lot of Christian friends who reject the conservative views on the environment and agree with Al Gore. Or other christian friends who are scared silly by the likes of Bush, Buchannon, and Pat Robertson. I even know an awful lot of christians who are starting to become tolerant of homosexuality. The best thing about theocracies is that they are self curing because once people have tried it they never want to stay that way. Look at all of the winds of reform in Iran. One of the guys I work with is Iranian, and a lot of his family is still in Iran. A whole bunch of people in that society are really pissed off at the hard core militants. Hopefully, most conservative/evangelical/mainline/liberal christians will continue to view North and Chilton for the nutcases that they truely are. Bubba

08-23-2002, 02:27 PM	#9
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Sorry about the rant but these people really make me angry. Bubba

08-24-2002, 11:22 AM	#10
KC Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Narcisco, RRR Posts: 527	Does the DI or anyone else really believe that Baptists, Presbyterians, various evagelical splinter groups, Reconstructionists, Catholics, and Moonies that make up the ID movement will peacefully coexist once the monolithic atheist conspiracy is torn down? I see an ideological bloodbath on the horizon. Hopefully, we can keep ID in check long enough for their natural antipathies towards each other to consume them before they reach their first goal. KC

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