JaeIsGod

Since when does omnipotence have bounds? Doesn't that take away the whole meaning of the word?

Quantum Ninja

If it has bounds, then why even call it omnipotence? Seems like you're talking about semi-omnipotence which is a contradiction in itself.

Keith Russell

Before 'God' could 'kill' himself, 'He' would not only have to exist, 'He'd' have to be alive; only living things can be 'killed'.

Then 'He' wouldn't have to kill 'Himself', 'He'd' just have to remain alive until 'He' died...as all living things eventually do...as some Christians believe 'He' has already done.

K

Odemus

I don't see how god being infinite in all of his attributes equates to god having every possible action available to him.

One of you hardcore athiests please explain.

Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross :

Wait a minute. Is your objection to my argument that it sounds like another argument that people don't accept? I think you'll have to engage my argument directly, rather than simply reminiscing about arguments past.

As for the paradox of the stone, it actually does present a problem for accepted definitions of omnipotence. What's your definition of omnipotence?

Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Odemus :

I don't see where any of us has claimed that. Omni-attributes are more than claims of infinity -- they're claims of completeness. Maximal power, not just infinite power. It's possible to imagine a being more powerful than God, one who can do more actions, and it follows that God is not omnipotent.

Odemus

Then please explain how a being who has the ability to suicide is more powerful or more complete than a being who is unable to suicide.

Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Odemus :

Because there's one thing a being like God except that he could commit suicide can do that God can't do. That's how we tend to measure power, by the amount of things someone can do.

When we prevent people from committing suicide, we generally think we're restricting their abilities somehow, right?

Odemus

This is your definition of power?

Are we making them less powerful? Would they have been more powerful if they succeeded?

I'm looking for a logical explanation which will lead me to conclude that a being is more powerful by having the ability to suicide. I'd also like a working definition for "complete".

Ottman Out

If I were a Christian, I think my response would be, "Go ahead and play your semantic games. I don't really care if you call God 'omnipotent' or not. God is powerful enough to have created the universe, to be able to hear my prayers, and to grant me eternal life. Whether or not you want to call that 'omnipotent' is really beside the point."

If I wanted to play the semantic games, I would question whether God's lack of desire to cease to exist really constituted a lack of omnipotence. Maybe God has the power to cease to exist, but God's character is such that in no circumstance would God choose to cease to exist. Thinking of the thread on Plantinga's counterfactuals, the Christian might say that just because God's character is such that God would never decide to cease to exist, it does not follow that God is not free to cease to exist, nor that God lacks the power to cease to exist.

Imagine two people, one happy and healthy, the second depressive and suicidal. Assume the happy and healthy person would never contemplate suicide. Does that make the happy and healthy person less powerful than the person who keeps attempting suicide and may one day succeed?