Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DarthMom · 01-24-2003, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
That is not what I asked. If you believe in an eye for eye and feel entitled to murder anyone who harmed/murdered your child, doesn't that mean that the parent of the person you killed is just as entitled to murder you?

I think my answer explained it quite simply. keep reading till you get it.

Huginn · 01-24-2003, 06:59 AM

Quote:

My empathy genes are super sized...

But very blinkered...

lunachick · 01-24-2003, 07:03 AM

I am a mother, DarthMom. And as a mother, I'd like to see my child grow up in a healthier society, that has the wisdom and the power to minimise such atrocities. I would not want my child growing up in some cowboy-vigilante State where murder and revenge were the norm. And if statistics can't show me that the death penalty is not a deterent of violent crime, but exacerbates it, then I know where my vote lies.

I'm a strong believer in prevention over cure.

livius drusus · 01-24-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarthMom
I think my answer explained it quite simply. keep reading till you get it.

I am trying to find out from you just where you draw the line between justice and revenge. If you do not wish to answer me, then by all means abstain, but if you are going to address my points kindly do so without the sarcasm.

Your answer was about whether you would be angry at the mother of a crime victim for "wanting justice." I am not referring to the original crime here. Since you feel entitled to murder a murderer with your bare hands, doesn't that same right to exact blood extend to the mother of the person you murdered? When does the eye for an eye principle end?

DarthMom · 01-24-2003, 07:10 AM

Well like I said, I am not as evolved as you guys ...:notworthy
glad you would be able to treat your childs murderer with forgiveness and kindness, and restraint. It is not something I could do. Hey maybe in my next life

but sure as hell not in this one.

Harpy · 01-24-2003, 07:22 AM

The reason the Death Penalty is wrong is that it makes the state a murderer and by connection the people of that state.

We say taking someones life is wrong and to punish you we are going to take your life, thus we are no better than the criminal.

The Death Penalty serves only to appease the blood lust of the mob.

The Death Penalty has always been a very emotive issue. When France & Britain stopped state executions it was in defiance of public opinion. Anti democratic, not a vote winning move, never the less the right thing to have done IMHO.

I have a daughter who is 2 years old tomorrow and stories like the one Lady S has brought to our attention fill me with horror, none the less I stand by what I just written.

lunachick · 01-24-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarthMom

glad you would be able to treat your childs murderer with forgiveness and kindness, and restraint.

No, you got that wrong. I could not forgive anyone that hurt my child. And I doubt I could treat them with kindness and restraint.

My point is that i'd rather have my child grow up in a society where all is done to prevent these kinds of atrocities happening. And clearly, the death penalty fails miserably in this respect.

DarthMom · 01-24-2003, 07:30 AM

My husband is at work and unable to post, but during our chatting and reading this thread to him, he had some input..

The reason the death penalty is not a deterrent is that it is not used often and swiftly....people are detached from it because the person being executed has been in prison for 10 years and its out of peoples minds. If every person that was found guilty and sentenced to death went right from the court room to the chair, and that punishment got immediate news coverage it would be much more effective.

Its not barbaric at all. People with the sense of unprovoked violence are not capable of living in an organized an lawful society. I for one, do not want to be giving up portions of my paycheck to support these people. I'll give up 35 cents for 12guage slug, but I am not gonna support these people for the rest of their lives. You want to...that's fine. Lets make arrangements that pro-death penalty people get a tax cut and all the pro-life sentence people pick up the slack?! Sounds fair to me.

Wanting justice for the death of a wrong one is totally different than when Joe Shmoe walks into McDonalds and starts dropping people because his wife left him. Completely intolerable, and I want the guy put to death.

wildernesse · 01-24-2003, 07:47 AM

Death penalty cases cost more to the taxpayers than life without parole--because of the differences in how the trial must be handled and the lengthy appeals process. I realize that in your version, there would be no appeals--which means that you are ok with murdering those 13 people who were on death row in Illinois, but were found innocent due to DNA evidence about 14 years after the fact.

Killing someone deliberately is always wrong, whether it is a child killing a child or the government killing a criminal.

I am opposed to the death penalty because of my religious and ethical convictions. You are free to disagree, but I'd rather live in my world than yours.

--tibac

RoddyM · 01-24-2003, 07:51 AM

Darthmom, have a think about it. If someone raped and killed my child I would prefer to bring them home cooked meals than pull a switch that would kill them. And I don't mean I would poison their meals or any of that shit either. I would, if I wanted to go there at all, treat them like regular people. Or else I would just leave them be.

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01-24-2003, 07:03 AM	#43
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	I am a mother, DarthMom. And as a mother, I'd like to see my child grow up in a healthier society, that has the wisdom and the power to minimise such atrocities. I would not want my child growing up in some cowboy-vigilante State where murder and revenge were the norm. And if statistics can't show me that the death penalty is not a deterent of violent crime, but exacerbates it, then I know where my vote lies. I'm a strong believer in prevention over cure.

01-24-2003, 07:10 AM	#45
DarthMom Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: florida Posts: 85	Well like I said, I am not as evolved as you guys ...:notworthy glad you would be able to treat your childs murderer with forgiveness and kindness, and restraint. It is not something I could do. Hey maybe in my next life but sure as hell not in this one.

01-24-2003, 07:22 AM	#46
Harpy Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chelmsford, South East England Posts: 144	The reason the Death Penalty is wrong is that it makes the state a murderer and by connection the people of that state. We say taking someones life is wrong and to punish you we are going to take your life, thus we are no better than the criminal. The Death Penalty serves only to appease the blood lust of the mob. The Death Penalty has always been a very emotive issue. When France & Britain stopped state executions it was in defiance of public opinion. Anti democratic, not a vote winning move, never the less the right thing to have done IMHO. I have a daughter who is 2 years old tomorrow and stories like the one Lady S has brought to our attention fill me with horror, none the less I stand by what I just written.

01-24-2003, 07:30 AM	#48
DarthMom Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: florida Posts: 85	My husband is at work and unable to post, but during our chatting and reading this thread to him, he had some input.. The reason the death penalty is not a deterrent is that it is not used often and swiftly....people are detached from it because the person being executed has been in prison for 10 years and its out of peoples minds. If every person that was found guilty and sentenced to death went right from the court room to the chair, and that punishment got immediate news coverage it would be much more effective. Its not barbaric at all. People with the sense of unprovoked violence are not capable of living in an organized an lawful society. I for one, do not want to be giving up portions of my paycheck to support these people. I'll give up 35 cents for 12guage slug, but I am not gonna support these people for the rest of their lives. You want to...that's fine. Lets make arrangements that pro-death penalty people get a tax cut and all the pro-life sentence people pick up the slack?! Sounds fair to me. Wanting justice for the death of a wrong one is totally different than when Joe Shmoe walks into McDonalds and starts dropping people because his wife left him. Completely intolerable, and I want the guy put to death.

01-24-2003, 07:47 AM	#49
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Death penalty cases cost more to the taxpayers than life without parole--because of the differences in how the trial must be handled and the lengthy appeals process. I realize that in your version, there would be no appeals--which means that you are ok with murdering those 13 people who were on death row in Illinois, but were found innocent due to DNA evidence about 14 years after the fact. Killing someone deliberately is always wrong, whether it is a child killing a child or the government killing a criminal. I am opposed to the death penalty because of my religious and ethical convictions. You are free to disagree, but I'd rather live in my world than yours. --tibac

01-24-2003, 07:51 AM	#50
RoddyM Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 183	Darthmom, have a think about it. If someone raped and killed my child I would prefer to bring them home cooked meals than pull a switch that would kill them. And I don't mean I would poison their meals or any of that shit either. I would, if I wanted to go there at all, treat them like regular people. Or else I would just leave them be.

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