Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tgamble · 09-20-2002, 06:48 AM

No doubt you've seen these before
<a href="http://www.creationscience.com/" target="_blank">http://www.creationscience.com/</a>

and wondered what the fuck does the formation of the moon have to do with evolution?!

anyway, there's a couple of questions there that I haven't been able to find answers to.

15. Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination.

19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, and terrestrial-like brines. Doesn't this implicate Earth as their source-and a powerful launcher, "the fountains of the great deep?

Thanks.

pz · 09-20-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
No doubt you've seen these before
<a href="http://www.creationscience.com/" target="_blank">http://www.creationscience.com/</a>

and wondered what the fuck does the formation of the moon have to do with evolution?!

anyway, there's a couple of questions there that I haven't been able to find answers to.

15. Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination.

19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, and terrestrial-like brines. Doesn't this implicate Earth as their source-and a powerful launcher, "the fountains of the great deep?

Thanks.

The only living bacteria found in meteorites or rocks hundreds of millions of years old are the result of modern, terrestrial contamination.

There haven't even been credible fossil bacteria found in meteorites. The nano-fossils from the Martian rocks have been dismissed as artifacts by every biologist who has looked at them, as far as I know, and were pretty ridiculous when first proposed.

I'd ask this guy what his evidence for these claims might be. The discovery of living, extraterrestrial microbes would be front-page news on all of the major scientific journals, I would think.

Ian Xel Lungold · 09-20-2002, 08:01 AM

A better solution might be to assume that Creation has been evolving from the same building blocks all over the Universe not just as an accident on this mud ball.
In service,
Ian Xel Lungold

Coragyps · 09-20-2002, 08:03 AM

Nope, no ET bacteria have been found in uncontaminated meteorites. Some have been found in old (I don't remember just how old - can't be over 6000 years, though

) rocks - basalt from Washington State, and some other places. These show me, that archaea, at least, can survive in an almost "suspended animation" state for incredible amounts of time.

Salt, water, "limestone" or calcite, sugars, and brines are not unique to Earth or to life anyway: the Tagish Lake meteorite even had traces of the vitamin niacin in it, and there is a perfectly plausible synthesis for that that uses only cyanide, ultraviolet light, and other ingredients available in most circumstellar disks. Sugars, too, are just polymers of formaldehyde, one of the more common molecules in space. And the sugars in meteorites are simple, non-optically active ones - no glucose or sucrose or such.

I also suspect, and maybe one of you physics wonks could confirm, that a whole asteroid belt launched ballistically by the "fountains of the deep" like Walt Brown claims would all be on orbits that would intersect Earth's orbit. It's not like a flying piece of rock has a booster to insert it into an orbit out past Mars.....

tgamble · 09-20-2002, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pz:


The only living bacteria found in meteorites or rocks hundreds of millions of years old are the result of modern, terrestrial contamination.

b-b-b-but brown said that contamination was prevented? How can a creationist be wrong? He can't be lying! Creationists never lie!

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 09-20-2002, 09:40 AM

I LOVE question number 20. I burst my gut laughing at that. I stopped, dried my eyes, and laughed some more.

09-20-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

by definition? If a reptile�s leg evolved into a bird�s wing, wouldn�t it become a bad leg long before it became a good wing? How could metamorphosis evolve? (See page 16.)

Doh!

Quote:

7. Which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA, which can only be produced by DNA? (See page 16.)

Maybe RNA came first?

Quote:

10. If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least eight moons revolve backwards? (See page 24.)

Does the concept of 'forwards' & 'backwards' in outer space make sense - forward/backwards relative to what?

Quote:

12. Where did matter come from? What about space, time, energy, and even the laws of physics? (See page 28.)

Richard Dawkins says it comes from nowt. Ken Miller says it comes from God. Either way, Evolution by natural selection still stands.

Quote:

13. How could stars evolve? (See pages 30�31.)

Whats that got to do with biological evolution?

Quote:

16. Did you know that most scientific dating techniques indicate that the earth, solar system, and universe are young? (See pages 35�39.)

Don't tell me! Tell all those other scientists who apparently got it wrong!

Quote:

18. Have you heard about the mitochondrial Eve and the genetic Adam? Scientists know that the mitochondrial Eve was the common female ancestor of every living person, and she appears to have lived only about 6,000�7,000 years ago. (See pages 255�257.)

If I kill every living person, apart from my sister & her hubby [& me thanks!], then my sister becomes mitochondrial eve. [scigirl, pantera etc..please correct me if my understanding of this is wrong]

LeftCoast · 09-20-2002, 11:21 AM

Question 18 is a flat-out fabrication. I don't recall the exact time-line but the mitochondrial "Eve" lived at least 75Kya not 6-7Kya as claimed in the question.

Edited to add: Did a quick check and mitochondrial "eve" lived about 200Kya.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeftCoast ]

Hastur · 09-20-2002, 11:50 AM

The easiest way to deal with cretinists is to assume from the outset that virtually everything they say is a lie.

The trick is finding the few kernels of truth carefully hidden in the piles of pure bullshit.

tgamble · 09-20-2002, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hastur:
The easiest way to deal with cretinists is to assume from the outset that virtually everything they say is a lie.

The trick is finding the few kernels of truth carefully hidden in the piles of pure bullshit.

Well, they sometimes get names and places right. Usually when they say something accurate, it's either

a) an accident

b) followed quickly by a load of BS. (The laws of thermodynamics are well established...)

c) A correction on an argument that has been so utterly refuted that it's no longer useful to their cause.

09-20-2002, 06:48 AM	#1
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	20 stupid questions for evilutionists No doubt you've seen these before <a href="http://www.creationscience.com/" target="_blank">http://www.creationscience.com/</a> and wondered what the fuck does the formation of the moon have to do with evolution?! anyway, there's a couple of questions there that I haven't been able to find answers to. 15. Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination. 19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, and terrestrial-like brines. Doesn't this implicate Earth as their source-and a powerful launcher, "the fountains of the great deep? Thanks.

09-20-2002, 11:21 AM	#8
LeftCoast Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: San Diego, CA, USA Posts: 913	Question 18 is a flat-out fabrication. I don't recall the exact time-line but the mitochondrial "Eve" lived at least 75Kya not 6-7Kya as claimed in the question. Edited to add: Did a quick check and mitochondrial "eve" lived about 200Kya. [ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeftCoast ]</p>

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09-20-2002, 08:01 AM	#3
Ian Xel Lungold New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sedona Posts: 2	A better solution might be to assume that Creation has been evolving from the same building blocks all over the Universe not just as an accident on this mud ball. In service, Ian Xel Lungold

09-20-2002, 08:03 AM	#4
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Nope, no ET bacteria have been found in uncontaminated meteorites. Some have been found in old (I don't remember just how old - can't be over 6000 years, though ) rocks - basalt from Washington State, and some other places. These show me, that archaea, at least, can survive in an almost "suspended animation" state for incredible amounts of time. Salt, water, "limestone" or calcite, sugars, and brines are not unique to Earth or to life anyway: the Tagish Lake meteorite even had traces of the vitamin niacin in it, and there is a perfectly plausible synthesis for that that uses only cyanide, ultraviolet light, and other ingredients available in most circumstellar disks. Sugars, too, are just polymers of formaldehyde, one of the more common molecules in space. And the sugars in meteorites are simple, non-optically active ones - no glucose or sucrose or such. I also suspect, and maybe one of you physics wonks could confirm, that a whole asteroid belt launched ballistically by the "fountains of the deep" like Walt Brown claims would all be on orbits that would intersect Earth's orbit. It's not like a flying piece of rock has a booster to insert it into an orbit out past Mars.....

09-20-2002, 09:40 AM	#6
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	I LOVE question number 20. I burst my gut laughing at that. I stopped, dried my eyes, and laughed some more.

09-20-2002, 11:50 AM	#9
Hastur Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Carcosa Posts: 238	The easiest way to deal with cretinists is to assume from the outset that virtually everything they say is a lie. The trick is finding the few kernels of truth carefully hidden in the piles of pure bullshit.

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